Kakashi vs Cyclops

Topic started by st0nnec0ld on Nov. 19, 2012. Last post by 321zigzag1 1 year, 9 months ago.
Post by UltimateHero0406 (5,041 posts) See mini bio Level 16

@Kurohige: Cyclops' blasts are completely dodgable, especially from such a distance

All that is needed is one substitution and it is game over. And Cyclops would give more than enough time considering his reaction/repose time. And remember the sharingan increases reaction time as seen in Naruto vs Sasuke round 2. And he is not seen by the majority of people that he fights ho are ninjas as well. A human level opponent wouldn't be a problem. In the vid Sasuke was looking right at him and he still disappeared and appeared under ground right below him and used head hunter jutsu. So getting underground without being seen won't be a problem.

First two, he gets behind Naruto faster than he can react. In the last three he switches out with one of Naruto's clones faster than he can see or react to. So in conclusion, Cyclops would not have the time to remove his visor and wipe everything away. As soon the fight starts, Kakashi will have already switched out with a clone and be making his way over the Scott. Scott kills the clone, it disappears, Scott decides to blow up everything, but before he takes off the visor, kunai in his neck.

Post by taichokage (13,328 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Basically what I was going to say but better. Plenty of people have dodged Cyclop's blasts, some not even as fast as Kakashi. The fact that Kakashi's dominant ability specializes is predicting and super reaction time, he should be able to evade or counter the blasts with relative ease.
Post by xlab3000 (1,394 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Kakashi would win

Post by Kurohige (3,718 posts) See mini bio Level 19

@UltimateHero0406 said:

@Kurohige: Cyclops' blasts are completely dodgable, especially from such a distance

All that is needed is one substitution and it is game over. And Cyclops would give more than enough time considering his reaction/repose time. And remember the sharingan increases reaction time as seen in Naruto vs Sasuke round 2. And he is not seen by the majority of people that he fights ho are ninjas as well. A human level opponent wouldn't be a problem. In the vid Sasuke was looking right at him and he still disappeared and appeared under ground right below him and used head hunter jutsu. So getting underground without being seen won't be a problem.

First two, he gets behind Naruto faster than he can react. In the last three he switches out with one of Naruto's clones faster than he can see or react to. So in conclusion, Cyclops would not have the time to remove his visor and wipe everything away. As soon the fight starts, Kakashi will have already switched out with a clone and be making his way over the Scott. Scott kills the clone, it disappears, Scott decides to blow up everything, but before he takes off the visor, kunai in his neck.

I'm guessing you just found the first scan of someone dodging Cyclops? Well For one Cyclops was not trying to kill Deadpool, he can control the power output of his beams The best example of someone avoiding Cyclop's laser was when daredevil predicted where it would fire by sensing how his body moved, Cyclop's beams are effectively beams of light that travel at you guessed it light speed. It is more realistic for someone to dodge bullets from a gun than a shot from his visor as it has been confirmed in an issue of Uncanny that he does have a switch on the palm of his glove and with the access to technology they have it would not be some cheap garage door motor in his visors. And even then they were close enough to read his body movements, I don't see Kakashi doing that from over 100 feet away. Also Considering Cyclops was also able to parry Storms lighting further assist my argument:

Also important to not that Cyclops pulls his punches a lot to prevent killing, this means toning down the power and taking time to aim in non-lethal spots, a few instances of bad writing don't cover up his attack speed either. Also recently Cyclops does not need to touch his visors anymore, he can do it by squeezing his hand, Kakashi wont even notice, All of this training allows him to be able to utilize his optic blast under stressful conditions and to regulate the flow of energy he is able to emit. Without monitoring that control and thus not instantaneously emitting energy as soon as he opens his eyes, the blast has the potential to miss targets. Considering the damage potential his uncontrolled vision is capable of producing, Cyclops has always made every effort to temper his use of his power.

Targets of his power, can learn to predict how the blast will move, based on the position of his head, neck and the delay of the emission of the blast. He has made that more difficult by learning to bounce his blast from multiple surfaces, making it harder to predict his attack. But like shooting a weapon, he must still aim, prepare, release and control the energy put out by his optic blast.

While it is a great power, targeted literally by looking, there is still more to the dynamic and use of said power. It's not only about how fast the weapon is but how well aimed.

However most of these people who dodge already know of his power, even if, and that is a big if, Kakashi can dodge one laser he is not dodging beams like the above scan.

Again, I'm no liar, many people have blocked Cyclops or dodged him: Here you have storm blocking Cyclops blast we in an earlier panel Cyclops was the one parrying Storm's attack

Here you have deadpool dodging cyclops blast as well as bullets and lightning

Here is captain America blocking cyclops blast

Here you have batgirl (Cassey) dodging heat vision

Yes, here is Batgirl dodging kryptonian heat blast, there are many instances where characters dodge light based attacks.
Yes, here is Batgirl dodging kryptonian heat blast, there are many instances where characters dodge light based attacks.

Now for your scans and video since I hate when people ignore other's post. I will start with this video: First off, he was not over 100 feet away; he was about 4 and even then it took him well over a few seconds, he didn't even reach Sasuke until he was finished with his jutsu and noticed he was gone. Not to mention while the fire was coming at him he would have had enough time to prepare, with Sasuke doing obvious hand signs that kakashi knows and all, he even had time to be shocked lol. Also, when he grabbed Sasuke's leg it took him a good while to even drag him down. I see no reason Cyclops would not laser his hand off the moment he grabs him. Not to mention that unlike Sasuke, kakashi wont know what he is going to do. Now for your scans with Naruto, Kakashi jsd PLENTY of time to prepare for Naruto telegraphed attack and again, he didn't get behind him from over 100 feet away as for the clones while impressive he mainly took advantage of naruto's stupidity, but I wont debunk that since that is a credible speed feat. However non of that showed how Kakashi will even get to Cyclops from that distance and again, substitute what? There is no prep time and nothing around to substitute with, you keep saying it like this is the video game or something. shadow clones wont trick him either as he will easily blow him away. Also where did you get that Cyclops starts with sharingan on? That's like saying Danzo starts with his gauntlets off or something. I'm not even trying to say Cyclops wins, but I don't see how, given the conditions, Kakashi will win as easily as you say. Because a lot has mainly been trying to debunk Cyclop's speed which wont matter from that far since kakashi wont be able to make out body movement.

Post by Kurohige (3,718 posts) See mini bio Level 19

@taichokage said:

Basically what I was going to say but better. Plenty of people have dodged Cyclop's blasts, some not even as fast as Kakashi. The fact that Kakashi's dominant ability specializes is predicting and super reaction time, he should be able to evade or counter the blasts with relative ease.

Likewise for Kakashi when Hidan was parrying him and knocking him about yet Shikamaru was able to dodge and tag Hidan. As explained above Cyclops was likely not going for a lethal blow and those people know Cyclops and how he fights, they can tell when he is going to do something, Kakashi is not predicting anything from that far away.

Post by UltimateHero0406 (5,041 posts) See mini bio Level 16

@Kurohige: Alright, Im not going to argue that Cyclops' beams are not faster than light. I acknowledge that they are quite close to it (because technically the actual lasers do not move at the speed of light but the light radiated off of them does as I have seen in my recent research but wever.) Even if they do move at the speed of light, Cyclops must open or take of his visor which takes about 1 second which Kakashi is more than fast enough to react and get ready to move, even from that distance even without sharingan. But the question is what will he do about it? He could use substitution but there is seemingly nothing to switch with and making a clone would take too long. But he doesn't necessarily need a log to switch out with. It could be a large chunk of dirt. If im not mistaken, someone switched out with a doll once. But he could always switch out with multiple shadow or earth clones clones and continually make his way underground. Kakashi would most likely have already made the switch the second the fight starts. He has made clones and switched in the heat of combat without anyone seeing and without anything around. This is he does with pretty much all of his opponents who he does not know just to be safe. And the clones won't be so easily destroyed because of that 1 second fire time it takes to open his visor. He could also reveal his sharingan while he is dodging for increased reaction time right after the first shot.

So here is a rough estimation: Cyclops fires shot. Clone 1 destroyed. Clones 2 and 3 jump out of ground and begin to throw shuriken. Cyclops is dodging and blasting at the clones who are also dodging. They throw paper bomb shurikens close to Cyclops so it looks like they missed. The bombs blow point blank. The clones and Kakashi nail him with kunai while he is disoriented (if he is still alive).

Scenario 2: Clone 1 destroyed. The real kakashi comes out with a chidori and sharingan. Cyclops fires a beam and multiple beams and Kakashi blocks them all the way with chidori and puts it through Scott's chest. (He is capable of this since he was able to cut through a real lightning bolt as a kid with almost no chakra left).

Post by st0nnec0ld (52 posts) See mini bio Level 7

@Kurohige: Wow, you're like, pwning everyone.

Post by Kurohige (3,718 posts) See mini bio Level 19

@UltimateHero0406:

Even if they do move at the speed of light, Cyclops must open or take of his visor which takes about 1 second which Kakashi is more than fast enough to react and get ready to move, even from that distance even without sharingan.

No, nowadays Cyclops can press a button on his hand and do the same thing

He can make them bigger or smaller depending on what he wants to do.

His visors are always open and he can go max power without taking them off so I'm not too sure what you mean there

, I think you're talking about Cyclops when he is in his casual clothes and wears his red sunglasses. Anyway, no, he is not reacting to anything moving at light-speed when he wont even be able to tell what the opponent is doing, unless he will notice Cyclops clenching his fist from 164 feet away let alone without sharingan.

But the question is what will he do about it?

Blow them all away in one swoop of his gigantic optic blast?

He could use substitution but there is seemingly nothing to switch with and making a clone would take too long. But he doesn't necessarily need a log to switch out with. It could be a large chunk of dirt.

Umm no, otherwise nobody who had basic academy training would ever be hit is all you needed to substitute a body was whatever was on the floor, that would also defeat the purpose of sand clones, bug clones, water clones, and Itachi crow clones if eveyone could do it with whatever was around. Hence why when Kankuro fought Sasori he realized he was a sand native by his use of a sand clone when he thought he got him with his iron maiden, and why kakashi needed sharingan to copy water clones. Also, if it were that potent then one would substitute with a explosive tag or something and insta-kill whoever attacked them. Regardless, this technique requires some sort of preparation and I have no memory of them ever doing this on the fly.

But he could always switch out with multiple shadow or earth clones clones and continually make his way underground.

All consume chakara, he isn't Naruto, especially with earth or lightning clones which consume more chakara than usual, not that it matters since while making the signs he will be vulnerable to attack or while giving the order for this complex stealth kill from 164 feet away. Also with Kakashi literally standing in front of Cyclops I doubt he will be tricked by these clones as if he didn't just see it happen or something, otherwise Cyclops would have to be the dumbest guy in the X-men.

Kakashi would most likely have already made the switch the second the fight starts.

The second the fight starts? Kakashi does that kinda stuff when he had some kind of preparation either during or before that fight, and because there is no prep nor anywhere for him to hide and make this switch I highly doubt he will do this clever and complex maneuver within seconds of the fight starting. He doesn't have master planning otherwise he would never have needed Shikamaru or Kurama to tell him plans for anything. To suggest that Kakashi would, without Cyclops' notice, create multiple earth and shadow clones and then switch within a second of the fight starting and instantly attack Cyclops from 50 meters away is crazy, considering even Itachi only had enough time to make one clone during his intense fight with Sasuke sometime during the fight, I doubt Kakashi who is leagues below itachi in terms of... almost everything, if going to be able to carry out this plan. That's like me saying that Cyclops, the moment the fight starts, already called for backup from the X-men and during the fight Kakashi gets hit by an airstrike from the X-jet or something.

He has made clones and switched in the heat of combat without anyone seeing and without anything around.

Yes, clones, not substitutions, clones can be made from chakara which everyone in Naruto has, substitutions are different; if Kakashi make a clone appear to his right and then gets hit by an optic blast, his clone wont take the damage or anything, whereas if he makes a substitution he normally wouldn't even be there nor do it in plain sight, and most characters only make one substitution at a time since you can't substitute one person with 20 different things. I'm guessing by in the heat of combat you mean in the Hidan vs Kakuzu fight? Where, while being chased by Hidan and one of Kakuzu's mask he managed to create a clone to trick them both and make an escape. The thing is, they were fighting in a forest, Kakashi got behind a tree and made a clone to simply run and distract them, if he had done that right in front of them he would have been killed, he had a hard enough time dodging those two WITH trees and planning, I don't see him doing the same here, especially since Hidan was catching up to him. Unless you can think of another instance that was completely different then please show me, I don't claim to be an expert on anything.

This is he does with pretty much all of his opponents who he does not know just to be safe.

Cool, but that doesn't mean it will work, same with Naruto starting out with like 50-100 clones. Even when the odds are in his favor it doesn't work all the time.

And the clones won't be so easily destroyed because of that 1 second fire time it takes to open his visor. He could also reveal his sharingan while he is dodging for increased reaction time right after the first shot.

So in about one second, if that, Kakashi will, the moment the fight starts, create not one, but multiple clones to distract Cyclops, who is right in front of him, while planning out this secret underground attack and them proceed to, before Cyclops can squeeze his hand, open his sharingan as well as the clones and, from 164 feet away, read all the movements and anticipate every light-speed laser Cyclops fires? Nope, not buying it. Show me Kakashi doing anything like that from that far away and that fast and then I will gladly give this battle to him, because that is some Raikage or Minato stuff right there.

So here is a rough estimation: Cyclops fires shot. Clone 1 destroyed. Clones 2 and 3 jump out of ground and begin to throw shuriken. Cyclops is dodging and blasting at the clones who are also dodging. They throw paper bomb shurikens close to Cyclops so it looks like they missed. The bombs blow point blank. The clones and Kakashi nail him with kunai while he is disoriented (if he is still alive).

No, one shot would take out all the clones, kunai, and Kakashi, I guess I should have mentioned this Cyclops is known for his spacial awareness. It's actually one of his primary attributes.

Notice in the scan above it says "With barley a conscious thought" and he managed to do that

His beam effectively hit Beast twice with one reflecting off the ceiling onto his head and then off his head to the back of the room and then back to his head. I see no reason Cyclops can't do that to the clones and kunai with his kind of reaction and precision.

Lastly, I doubt Kakashi has enough aim to throw shurikens and paper bombs to fatally injure someone from 164 feet away even if he didn't fire a laser to instantly nullify it.

Scenario 2: Clone 1 destroyed. The real kakashi comes out with a chidori and sharingan. Cyclops fires a beam and multiple beams and Kakashi blocks them all the way with chidori and puts it through Scott's chest. (He is capable of this since he was able to cut through a real lightning bolt as a kid with almost no chakra left).

Or Cyclops can fire one huge laser like he would likely do in this situation and destroy all the clones. And no no no no no. Kakashi is not going to block a forest level blast with one hand. Okay first off, that cutting lightning was only a story, we have NEVER seen him do it, same with the fights with the 100 or something fights with him and Guy, besides Guy was the one who said it, not kakashi. Unless you mean this scene where he blocked Kakuzu's lightning Jutsu, be he didn't cut it and it took everything out of him, it was also slower and weaker than Sauke's lightning and slower and weaker than Cyclops' optic blast:

I would love to see him try that one this:

or this

or this

or this

Also, it's a laser, so even IF he did cut it, it would split down the middle and hit him or one of his clones.

Also to further discuss the lightning feat, Shikaku said it best

This is even true for Itachi and the legend of him singlehandedly slaughtering his clan... we then find out that Madara/Tobi also took part.

So yeah... I'm also not sure where you got the "with almost no chakara left" either since with barley any chakara he wasn't even able to run to save Sakura from Sasuke when he was like 50-10 feet away and he saw it coming, Naruto had to come and save her, I don't think I need a scan for that one...

@st0nnec0ld: Not really, I just think people are underrating Cyclops given the situation

Post by UltimateHero0406 (5,041 posts) See mini bio Level 16

@Kurohige: Ok, point taken. Just a couple things.

Also with Kakashi literally standing in front of Cyclops I doubt he will be tricked by these clones as if he didn't just see it happen or something, otherwise Cyclops would have to be the dumbest guy in the X-men.

I meant that he switches out with one and makes more later. And one time, Sakura was looking right at him and didn't notice that he had switched out of place with a full size human dummy with clothes and everything. It was when they were trying to see his face.

So yeah... I'm also not sure where you got the "with almost no chakara left" either since with barley any chakara he wasn't even able to run to save Sakura from Sasuke when he was like 50-10 feet away and he saw it coming, Naruto had to come and save her, I don't think I need a scan for that one...

It was in one of the new episodes. There was a flashback of him in his early teenage years. He had just finished a battle and clearly had pretty much no chakra left and stated this as well. However, he was able to conjure up a chidori that he shouldn't have been able to, run up a cliff, and block a full size lightning bolt with it. Its the third to newest episode I believe. Check it out.

Post by eddz99 (2,511 posts) See mini bio Level 11

With prep - kakashi

Without prep - speedblitz from cyclops

The conclusion is now done.

Post by SilverGalford (2,951 posts) See mini bio Level 11

i didn't know cyclops was that badass LOL!

Post by taichokage (13,328 posts) See mini bio Level 20
It still comes down to reactions. Kakashi has superior reactions and speed and thus has the advantage. In my mind it pretty much is as simple as that being that they are both one shotters.
Post by ALMIGHTY (403 posts) See mini bio Level 8

@taichokage said:

It still comes down to reactions. Kakashi has superior reactions and speed and thus has the advantage. In my mind it pretty much is as simple as that being that they are both one shotters.

Kakashi will not react to a light speed beam... Not even Minato (the fastest man in Naruto arguably) would be able to react to light speed...

Kakashi has to lift his headband and stare at someone a long distance away... Cyclops just preses one button, and light speed beams come at kakashi...

Post by ALMIGHTY (403 posts) See mini bio Level 8

@UltimateHero0406 said:

@Kurohige: Alright, Im not going to argue that Cyclops' beams are not faster than light. I acknowledge that they are quite close to it (because technically the actual lasers do not move at the speed of light but the light radiated off of them does as I have seen in my recent research but wever.) Even if they do move at the speed of light, Cyclops must open or take of his visor which takes about 1 second which Kakashi is more than fast enough to react and get ready to move, even from that distance even without sharingan.

And Kakshi has to lift his headband to use kamui, which isn't confirmed to be lightspeed... He will be hit before he can even lift his headband...

Post by taichokage (13,328 posts) See mini bio Level 20
As I have stated, Cyclip's beams are inconsistently fast. Most often being evaded by people nowhere near light speed and/or with inferior reactions to Kakashi. Whether or not Kakashi could react to the beams as many have, it's Cyclop's own movement that Kakashi could react to. There is no way that Cyclops will have the first move.
Post by Kurohige (3,718 posts) See mini bio Level 19

@taichokage: I get the feeling you didn't even read the above arguments for why he would easily get the first move. You know Cyclops has tagged speedsters or people faster than he is at CLOSE range, right? All he needs to do is squeeze his hand and it's over, Kakashi is not reacting to that since he wont see it from over 100 feet away. We kinda went over this argument already. Inconsistent or not, nobody has really debunked the lightspeed thing to anything more than PIC or CIS. Most of those people knew Cyclop's power and were close and able to react, or as stated, PIS.

Post by jeanroygrant (50 posts) See mini bio Level 6

Kakashi.

Post by TheNeutralOne (1,016 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Digging up this 1week old thread to point out that a bloodlusted cyclops could just remove the goggles keep his eyes open and spin in a fucking circle real fast. Kakashi will die for sure.

Post by 321zigzag1 (647 posts) See mini bio Level 9

I have never seen Cyclops pull a stunt like that.

It still doesn't really change what everyone has said.

Kamui or bust or he gets a second chance if he utilizes his standard evasive tactics effectively. If that fails then Cyclops.

Post by soncrono (10 posts) See mini bio Level 3

Lol!! Cyclops is dead, I'll play out a scenario.

Battle starts, Cyclops fires an optic blast. Kakashi with sharingan precogs, reacts, dives underground, does kage bunshin underground, uses fake clone to fight cyclops all he does is dodge and move around and avoids optic blast. Then when Kakashi is all prepared, he lets his clone get hit by the optic blast making it seem as though he died. Cyclops takes a breather thinking he's won the fight. Suddenly his head get's kamui'd in an instant. DEATH!

Kakashi FTW!

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