Hei vs. Edward Elric

Topic started by Galenbeta on April 17, 2013. Last post by Whats_out_the_bag 1 year, 2 months ago.
Post by bigz007 (1,088 posts) See mini bio Level 20

@ReliusClover: I'm sorry, can you repeat it to me one more time. I just can't seems to understand. It's probably because you're being contradictory to yourself.

So your saying it's not about power, it's just about power? Am I right this time?

P.S. next time explain it to me even slower please.

Post by ReliusClover (784 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@bigz007: You are currently in the battle section of the site, which means whether you think a character is "cool" or "good" does not matter and will not decide the outcome of the fight, which is what i am limiting myself to in this case, to things that have something to do with the thread at hand. On the other hand, outside the battle forum i couldn't care less about the strength/power/might/overpowerdness of a character.

If you want to talk about characters in general go to their page on this site or to the anime manga section.

Clear enough?

Post by bigz007 (1,088 posts) See mini bio Level 20

@ReliusClover: So we have a different opinion about what is a good fight. You need some planets to be destroyed and I on the other hand want to see some strategy. Good talking to you, bye.

Post by ReliusClover (784 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@bigz007: Ok by now i think you are either mentally challenged, really stubborn or just like twisting people's words.

Where did i say "I only like fights with overpowered characters in them"?

All i said is "Looking at it from a VS perspective, the rock dome created (or most of FMA alchemy in general) can't be called impressive" and that's it.

So, unless you can refute me by showing me and explaining me why that is impressive in the context of a battle forum, just get out.

Post by bigz007 (1,088 posts) See mini bio Level 20

@ReliusClover: To me it's impressive because no other technique would work on Pride at that moment so sealing him was good thinking. Attacking him head on would end up failing miserably. It's all about strategy.

Okay, now tell me what is impressive to you. If rock dome is not good enough, what is? Did they need to throw a mountain at Pride for you to be impressed?

Post by ReliusClover (784 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@bigz007: And again you manage to ignore what i said.

I said multiple times from a VS perspective, which means the move is taken out of it's series and context and just compared with other stuff in fiction. By the way there was at least a dozen other ways the scene could have went and Pride taken care of, the dome was used as a plot device in that case to push the story in a certain direction. And yeah throwing a mounting would be damn impressive as opposed to a building level rock dome.

And honestly, you are making FMA seem way smarter than it is.

Post by bigz007 (1,088 posts) See mini bio Level 20

@ReliusClover: VS perspective? They are facing Pride, and its a battle. It is VS perspective!

Post by ReliusClover (784 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@bigz007: No... that's a battle inside a universe while the story is going which means PIS and CIS are present.

VS perspective means in the context of a battle forum.

Post by phantomrant (1,273 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

@phantomrant: Have you never read Darker than black? At least watch the anime, because I don't see what the hell you think Ed is going to do to this bullet timer. His hand to hand combat skill is above anyone Ed has fought.

No, I've never read the manga (why would I read the manga, it's not like it can portray Hei better than the anime), but I've watched the anime. Hei is not a bullet timer (at least, not a bullet that can reach the speed of sound). Never has been, that's your misconception. Ed, on the other hand, very much is. How is Hei's hand to hand prowess better than Scar? We're talking about someone who can trade blows with King Bradley over here. Furthermore, why would Hei engage in barehanded combat with someone armed with a spear and is faster than him? He has to rely on his wire-knife, or he'll not be able to win this.

@ReliusClover said:

@phantomrant: The weight of character statements (not all of them) is rather insignificant in an argument so yes you can say that i am ignoring them, a simple character statement when not backed up by something is not even worth mentioning.

What? That makes absolutely no sense in debate. Did you even read what I wrote? A Chimera who's fought both Scar and Ed (Ed right after Scar) made out Ed as the one who's faster than Scar. Where's the insignificance? Where's the flaw? It's a sufficiently-backed statement. Unless you can somehow deny the validity of that statement, there's no reason why you should put it away. The fact that Ed has in fact kept pace with Scar multiple times also backs the statement.

And fighting a bullet timer (and getting trashed by one like Ed) does not make you one bullet timing as it only goes for the reactions.

Unless the character actually moves away from the bullet to dodge it, which Scar did, thus putting his movement AND reaction speed around the transonic level.

And you can use as much flowery language you want and try to bolster it up, alchemy in fact is nothing more than some fancy elemental manipulation and pretty love tire on top of that,

In other words, an ability that can trip up Hei whenever the alchemist wants to. Alchemy is a very versatile art and when Hei can't get a good lock on his opponent or take control of his surroundings, his fighting style is compromised.

i've seen more impressive stuff in Avatar

And those benders have a great chance of beating Hei if their speed/reactions were on his level. Still, that is completely irrelevant.

and no i don't ever remember Ed manipulating the distance between him and someone else, the best he can do is make spikes erupt at the location of his enemy which as i have already said is not impressive.

Oh, he can do a lot more than that. He can reconstruct whatever happens to be around him so long as he knows the material. The movie is a good example of his alchemy skills regarding the ground.

Again, I'm not going to get into argument of who beats who or the difficulty in beating them. Cause we all know that Hei definitely wins. I'm arguing that Hei needs to use his wire-knife effectively to the best of his ability to win this fight, or else it'd lead to other scenarios where it'll lead to his death.

Post by ReliusClover (784 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@phantomrant: I am saying that the chimer does not possess the skill nor eyes nor authority to make such a comment, pretty much on the same level as me trying to say what's faster lightning or light just by looking at it. And i don't remember Ed actually keeping up with Scar, Scar was the surperior one in their clash. Even if we ignore that that would still only give him reactions making the whole argument pointless to begin with.

And i've read FMA you don't need to tell me what he can do. Fact is i don't believe that anything Ed does or can do can't be countered with a jump in the air followed by a wire to the head, which is where we probably go apart. But really as long as you agree that Hei wins i don't have any reason to debate, i think that we differ on the scenarios or difficulty possible isn't all that important.

Post by Whats_out_the_bag (1,193 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@phantomrant:

No, I've never read the manga (why would I read the manga, it's not like it can portray Hei better than the anime), but I've watched the anime.

I didn't ask if you read the manga to find out which portrayed Hei better. I asked you to see how much you would know about him. Seeing as you haven't read the manga you wouldn't understand what he can truly do in terms of power.

Hei is not a bullet timer (at least, not a bullet that can reach the speed of sound).

Ok..... So do you acknowledge the fact that Hei is indeed a bullet timer? Now why do you need to reach the speed of sound to be a bullet dodger? Which I'll talk a little about this in just a moment.

Never has been, that's your misconception.

Whats hasn't been done? Bullet timing? Thats my misconception. Ok heres proof, which I won't only show you bullet timing I'll show you fighting skills. Hei's fast enough to react to a gernade exposion. Also look out for the guy who has the ubersensing power.

Ed, on the other hand, very much is.

Very much what a bullet timer? Or someone who can move at sonic speed? Please provide proof.

How is Hei's hand to hand prowess better than Scar?

How is it not better? Scar isn't a trained assassin he's a man who has great powers and learned to fight by trying to survive.

He has not shown any martial art combat skills at Hei's level.

We're talking about someone who can trade blows with King Bradley over here.

Do you not know Breadley is always in battle forums being compared with Hei.

Anyways, Wrath is way faster than Scar. Did you forget that Scar was taking on a serverly injured Wrath? Oh yeah, let not forget he wasn't using his ultimate eye, and the way he killed Wrath wasn't based off skill. He saw an oppotunity to attack and he did, even when he did do that he got hurt badly. So using that he could trade blow with King Bradley is a moot point when he wasn't at his best.

Furthermore, why would Hei engage in barehanded combat with someone armed with a spear and is faster than him?

Because he has done that very thing before. The fact he is capable of throwing spears Hei will move to close combat as thats the smart thing to do when fighting someone with better range. Come on think a little. Where's your proof that he's faster than Hei? Is it that he took on Scar, who took on Wrath. Funny thing is he got beat by Scar. Scar took him and his brother out, and Scar couldn't even handle a highly weakened Bradely. One quick little thing. If head is faster please show me a scan of Scar bullet timing or Ed bullet timing. Keeping up with thi Wrath isn't enough.

He has rely on his wire-knife, or he'll not be able to win this.

He uses his environment to his advantage. He doesn't rely on it. He relies on his skills and ability.

As Ed relies on his knowledge, which he doesn't win a battle with out using it. In which most of the really powerful characters he fights he some how lives only due to the fact that they aren't aloud to kill him or he gets help from a friend. There isn't anything Ed can do that Hei hasn't already seen.

Post by Galenbeta (3,025 posts) See mini bio Level 12

@phantomrant said:

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

@phantomrant: Have you never read Darker than black? At least watch the anime, because I don't see what the hell you think Ed is going to do to this bullet timer. His hand to hand combat skill is above anyone Ed has fought.

No, I've never read the manga (why would I read the manga, it's not like it can portray Hei better than the anime), but I've watched the anime. Hei is not a bullet timer (at least, not a bullet that can reach the speed of sound). Never has been, that's your misconception. Ed, on the other hand, very much is. How is Hei's hand to hand prowess better than Scar? We're talking about someone who can trade blows with King Bradley over here. Furthermore, why would Hei engage in barehanded combat with someone armed with a spear and is faster than him? He has to rely on his wire-knife, or he'll not be able to win this.

@ReliusClover said:

@phantomrant: The weight of character statements (not all of them) is rather insignificant in an argument so yes you can say that i am ignoring them, a simple character statement when not backed up by something is not even worth mentioning.

What? That makes absolutely no sense in debate. Did you even read what I wrote? A Chimera who's fought both Scar and Ed (Ed right after Scar) made out Ed as the one who's faster than Scar. Where's the insignificance? Where's the flaw? It's a sufficiently-backed statement. Unless you can somehow deny the validity of that statement, there's no reason why you should put it away. The fact that Ed has in fact kept pace with Scar multiple times also backs the statement.

And fighting a bullet timer (and getting trashed by one like Ed) does not make you one bullet timing as it only goes for the reactions.

Unless the character actually moves away from the bullet to dodge it, which Scar did, thus putting his movement AND reaction speed around the transonic level.

And you can use as much flowery language you want and try to bolster it up, alchemy in fact is nothing more than some fancy elemental manipulation and pretty love tire on top of that,

In other words, an ability that can trip up Hei whenever the alchemist wants to. Alchemy is a very versatile art and when Hei can't get a good lock on his opponent or take control of his surroundings, his fighting style is compromised.

i've seen more impressive stuff in Avatar

And those benders have a great chance of beating Hei if their speed/reactions were on his level. Still, that is completely irrelevant.

and no i don't ever remember Ed manipulating the distance between him and someone else, the best he can do is make spikes erupt at the location of his enemy which as i have already said is not impressive.

Oh, he can do a lot more than that. He can reconstruct whatever happens to be around him so long as he knows the material. The movie is a good example of his alchemy skills regarding the ground.

Again, I'm not going to get into argument of who beats who or the difficulty in beating them. Cause we all know that Hei definitely wins. I'm arguing that Hei needs to use his wire-knife effectively to the best of his ability to win this fight, or else it'd lead to other scenarios where it'll lead to his death.

you forget Hei's true power you idiot

Post by phantomrant (1,273 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@ReliusClover said:

Fact is i don't believe that anything Ed does or can do can't be countered with a jump in the air followed by a wire to the head, which is where we probably go apart. But really as long as you agree that Hei wins i don't have any reason to debate, i think that we differ on the scenarios or difficulty possible isn't all that important.

That's fine.

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

Ok..... So do you acknowledge the fact that Hei is indeed a bullet timer? Now why do you need to reach the speed of sound to be a bullet dodger? Which I'll talk a little about this in just a moment.

I'm using the sound of speed as a standard here. We can't use the term "bullet timer" without some kind of standard for the speed of the bullet.

Whats hasn't been done? Bullet timing? Thats my misconception. Ok heres proof, which I won't only show you bullet timing I'll show you fighting skills. Hei's fast enough to react to a gernade exposion. Also look out for the guy who has the ubersensing power.

I don't see any bullet-timing. He didn't react to the explosion either, he just got out of the way before it exploded. The part where the guy was firing bullets at Hei was where Hei was moving around to try to disorient his line of firing. Make it harder for the bullet to actually hit. His knife was shot out of his hand because the guy was able to see his movements regardless.

Very much what a bullet timer? Or someone who can move at sonic speed? Please provide proof.

Well I was thinking in terms of being able to move at sonic speed, but he was able to put up a wall as Father Cornello was shooting at him. This was in the first few episodes of the Brotherhood anime.

How is it not better? Scar isn't a trained assassin he's a man who has great powers and learned to fight by trying to survive.
He has not shown any martial art combat skills at Hei's level.

He hasn't shown any martial art skills? He's a warrior monk who's been training for years. He combines his destruction alchemy with barehanded combat as his signature fighting style. Not to mention much higher physical strength. If Hei were to fight him, without his powers or his wire-knife (just hand to hand skill) and Scar doesn't get to use alchemy, he'd get wrecked.

Do you not know Breadley is always in battle forums being compared with Hei.

Didn't have the slightest idea. I wonder why since Hei will only get a sword through his neck.

Anyways, Wrath is way faster than Scar. Did you forget that Scar was taking on a serverly injured Wrath?

Bradley was going all-out in that fight. So he got stabbed in the chest and got shot in the shoulder. You think that's going to stop a seasoned and highly experienced soldier who likely took more severe injuries than that? Just because he got injured doesn't mean his speed goes way down, especially if he was bloodlusted in his fight against Scar, whereas he was blitzing everyone and cutting apart bullets and tank shells in a casual manner.

Oh yeah, let not forget he wasn't using his ultimate eye, and the way he killed Wrath wasn't based off skill.

This has nothing to do with Bradley's speed or reflexes. Wrath lost because he pushed his body too far from going all-out and his declining stamina.

So using that he could trade blow with King Bradley is a moot point when he wasn't at his best.

Except Bradley who isn't at his best was still able to blitz Roy and Greedling. If his speed is retained, then his physical strength when he was trying to kill Scar also shouldn't be any different. Btw, those weren't the scans that I was talking about when I said that he traded blows with him. I was earlier.

Because he has done that very thing before. The fact he is capable of throwing spears Hei will move to close combat as thats the smart thing to do when fighting someone with better range.

But Ed doesn't throw spears. And you don't try to close the distance against someone with not only higher reach than you but is also faster.

Where's your proof that he's faster than Hei? Is it that he took on Scar, who took on Wrath.

Yep. Also the fact that Scar was bullet-timing.

Funny thing is he got beat by Scar.

1. yeah, in the first fight. In the second fight, it was Scar who had to flee.

2. Doesn't matter. This has nothing to do with the fact that Ed kept up with Scar.

Scar couldn't even handle a highly weakened Bradely.

But he did. If he couldn't handle Bradley, he would have died with a sword through him within seconds. Bradley's body wouldn't have given up.

One quick little thing. If head is faster please show me a scan of Scar bullet timing or Ed bullet timing. Keeping up with thi Wrath isn't enough.

It isn't enough? Have you seen Wrath's supersonic feats? How about the part where Scar was dancing around Hawkeye's pistols in his first fight with Ed.

He uses his environment to his advantage. He doesn't rely on it.

Sure, if he's fighting with fodders. Hei usually does move around a lot against any opponent who's a threat to him, which Ed is.

As Ed relies on his knowledge, which he doesn't win a battle with out using it. In which most of the really powerful characters he fights he some how lives only due to the fact that they aren't aloud to kill him or he gets help from a friend. There isn't anything Ed can do that Hei hasn't already seen.

He doesn't need knowledge if he's bloodlusted. What will Hei do if Ed launches off dozens of pillars from the ground, all attacking him from different angles?

it doesn't even look like you're getting my point here. Hei will win, but only if he uses his wire-knife and his wits to outsmart and outmanuever Ed. if he doesn't, he's getting pummeled.

@Galenbeta said:

you forget Hei's true power you idiot

Which is funny because I just addressed that in my first few posts. Maybe you should actually read what I write, next time.

Post by Whats_out_the_bag (1,193 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@phantomrant:

I like you man so I'll take this easy on you.

So I made a nice post and stuff, until I got to one part where you talk about Ed being a bullet timer. I then go to my FMA manga collection and start reading which I found some interesting stuff. I'll show you a few reasons why I'm called Whats out the bag.

I'm using the sound of speed as a standard here. We can't use the term "bullet timer" without some kind of standard for the speed of the bullet.

The ones Wrath dodged in the anime were clearly at subsonic speed seeing how the guns were from WWI. Yeah the entire FMA series takes places during 1901-1908 {Ishval War} / 1914-1915{the anime/manga ends at this time} (WWI end in our time). As you can see we haven't even invented the first gun that can shoot bullets that can travel at super sonic speed. (Or did we because I forget, but it really doesn't even matter.)

So Hei is reacting to bullets from this time period which means they are easily faster than what wrath timed to. But I'll kill this little FMA bullet timing shit, kind of like what I'm doing to this Yu Yu Hakusho moon busting.

I don't see any bullet-timing.

Um.. It's either you weren't looking or you didn't understand. Let me help you.

As you can see this is him blocking the bullet. He's even looking at it, meaning he can see it.

Sorry if you don't know what a bullet timer is, but someone who can react to the speed of a bullet and has the ability to dodge or counteract it is deemed a bullet timer.

He didn't react to the explosion either, he just got out of the way before it exploded.

I can give you that. Can't really prove much with that.

The part where the guy was firing bullets at Hei was where Hei was moving around to try to disorient his line of firing. Make it harder for the bullet to actually hit. His knife was shot out of his hand because the guy was able to see his movements regardless.

The guys power is called uber sensing. Which as it said in the manga. "Uber sensing : Senses your opponents gestures, eye movement, position of their center of gravity, light, shadow, sound" basically like wraths ultimate eye. So this is how and why he knew where and what Hei was going to do.

Well I was thinking in terms of being able to move at sonic speed, but he was able to put up a wall as Father Cornello was shooting at him. This was in the first few episodes of the Brotherhood anime.

LOL Yeah about that. In battle forum we don't use anime, we use manga remember. Now in the manga this is what happens.

As you can see there isn't any bullet timing going on here. The wall was probably created the moment he saw the gun being created. Seeing how we have no proof that he created the wall while he was being shot at, also thats highly unlikely seeing how he needs to clap and hit the ground and doing that while bending over would probably get him killed. He can't dodge while bending over. Now can he?

He hasn't shown any martial art skills? He's a warrior monk who's been training for years. He combines his destruction alchemy with barehanded combat as his signature fighting style. Not to mention much higher physical strength. If Hei were to fight him, without his powers or his wire-knife (just hand to hand skill) and Scar doesn't get to use alchemy, he'd get wrecked.

Please read my entire sentence because it seems to me that you stopped reading the moment you saw Scar doesn't have martial art skills, and not the part where I saw at Hei's level. Hei is better than Scar at fighting, I've never seen Scar fight like Hei ever. But I don't car anyway seeing how Hei is faster. This is between Hei and Ed.

Didn't have the slightest idea. I wonder why since Hei will only get a sword through his neck.

Ok I didn't want to do this, but I'll do it now.

Bradley was going all-out in that fight. So he got stabbed in the chest and got shot in the shoulder. You think that's going to stop a seasoned and highly experienced soldier who likely took more severe injuries than that? Just because he got injured doesn't mean his speed goes way down, especially if he was bloodlusted in his fight against Scar, whereas he was blitzing everyone and cutting apart bullets and tank shells in a casual manner.

Yeah we was going all out. Yet he was injured during the battle. Are you telling me if I stab you with a knife and shoot your shoulder your going to be able to fight at full strength? It's basic knowledge that if you're hurt you won't fight at full strength. Now about this cutting bullets and tank shells. That never happen i the manga. That scene was changed and shit was added into the anime.

First lets look at the anime scene.

Yeah time to release the cat out the bag.

So does anyone see him cutting any bullets or tank shells because I don't? He might be aim dodging but that's just a big old if.

Except Bradley who isn't at his best was still able to blitz Roy and Greedling. If his speed is retained, then his physical strength when he was trying to kill Scar also shouldn't be any different. Btw, those weren't the scans that I was talking about when I said that he traded blows with him. I was earlier.

I don't feel like getting more scans. Do you mean when he was about to die and used that left armed power?

This has nothing to do with Bradley's speed or reflexes. Wrath lost because he pushed his body too far from going all-out and his declining stamina.

Sorry but he lost due to him looking into the sun light and not seeing Scars hand. It's as simple as that.

Yep. Also the fact that Scar was bullet-timing.

Do you mean Scar aim dodging? He has never bullet timed in the manga. Please show scans.

But he did. If he couldn't handle Bradley, he would have died with a sword through him within seconds. Bradley's body wouldn't have given up.

You use the word handle too loosely my friend. Yeah he kept up only until Wrath got serous.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/full_metal_alchemist/v025/c103/31.html

I'll let you click for a couple of pages. Just so you can see him handling Wrath as you speak of.

It isn't enough? Have you seen Wrath's supersonic feats? How about the part where Scar was dancing around Hawkeye's pistols in his first fight with Ed.

It's called aim dodging. Look it up

Sure, if he's fighting with fodders. Hei usually does move around a lot against any opponent who's a threat to him, which Ed is.

Are you now trying to argue that Ed is a threat? Of course he is, but not the biggest Hei as taken down.

He doesn't need knowledge if he's bloodlusted. What will Hei do if Ed launches off dozens of pillars from the ground, all attacking him from different angles?

Move the fuck out the way, or kill Ed before that shit happens. You already know he ends up in situations where he's like 2 secs from death.

it doesn't even look like you're getting my point here. Hei will win, but only if he uses his wire-knife and his wits to outsmart and outmanuever Ed. if he doesn't, he's getting pummeled.

Nice that you agree he wins, but that's exactly how Hei fights. He tricks and sets shit up in order for him to win. This is what I mean by using his surroundings.

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