Hashirama Senju And Madara Uchiha Vs Yamamoto And Final Aizen

Topic started by Ikki_Minami_ on Feb. 20, 2013. Last post by Kurohige 2 years ago.
Post by Ikki_Minami_ (1,132 posts) See mini bio Level 12

Hashirama Senju And Mardara Uchiha Vs Yamamoto And Final Aizen

-All serious and bloodlusted

-No holding back

-Win by death

-Each team gets 3 days prep

-Mountain area

Post by SpeedForceSpider (5,172 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Going by those pictures Team Bleach is going to win. However if Madara is Edo, he could eventually solo.
Post by phantomrant (1,595 posts) See mini bio Level 10

It's still kinda early for Hashirama.

Does Madara get Kyuubi? If so, then:


Fight's not gonna last long.

Post by Jinbeifan1 (3,859 posts) See mini bio Level 14

I think its funny that Madara needed the Kyuubi to fight on par with Hashirama although I guess Hashirama needed the ancient items to fight as well

Post by taichokage (17,042 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Still have to go with team 2. Yamaji's Bankai and even his shikai honestly could wipe out Hashirama's wood easily. And Aizen can more or less do everything Madara can do minus the meteors, plus he's stronger and faster. Honestly Madara and Hashirama are not speedsters and havent shown very impressive speed. They could probably be blitzed.
Post by othus12 (8,580 posts) See mini bio Level 13

i wont be a walk in the park, madara and hashirama are getting pretty OP

and madara can equip the kyubby with susanoo and has shown feats not even FGT ichigo would manage to acomplish

really penta-mountain bust is a serious feat

Post by Jinbeifan1 (3,859 posts) See mini bio Level 14

@othus12: but thats only with the kyuubi, not by himself. The kyuubi amps up chakra as shown in the previous chapters

Post by waybig1010101 (5,003 posts) See mini bio Level 14

i give it to team 2 because of speed advantage, hax,and Hogyoku

Post by 5th (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Team 1 has greater rawer power on a far more larger scale than Team 2 but....

Team 2 has too much haxs and they're a lot more faster

Post by taichokage (17,042 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Exactly. Madara and Hashirama are on a whole different level than anyone else so far in Naruto and even Bleach so far in destruction, but hax accounts for a lot.
Post by nishi99 (2,297 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Online Now

It depends on what Madara has in this fight.

Scenario one Madara has EMS and Kyuubi which would be a close fight but i think Madara and Hashirama could win with good teamwork.

Scenario two Madara only has EMS Team 2 should come out on top with hax in that one.

Scenario three Madara has Edo and Rinnegan in this scenario i think they can win too mainly because we have yet too see Edo Madara use his full power.

Scenario four Madara can use everything which would be a stomp.

Post by phantomrant (1,595 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Hashi and Madara both have pretty bad durability. A punch from either Bleach powerhouses will kill them. With prep, they can at least defend themselves.

Shockwaves from Perfect Susanoo's slashes will one-shot the biggest threat, Yamamoto, due to the fact that his heat can vaporize the wood and he can just walk through Susanoo. Aizen will be busy regenerating. And a punch from Hashirama's wood will.... well kill Aizen. Assuming that Aizen doesn't put Team naruto in a illusion and that with prep, he doesn't invent something that's going to screw them over.

Post by taichokage (17,042 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Yeah that's my thing. Even these two don't break the typical lack of speed and glass cannon durability that is common in Naruto based on what we've seen. Those are the primary reasons I feel they would lose, coupled with a bit of hax on team 2
Post by Yusuke52 (454 posts) See mini bio Level 16

@taichokage: Glass Canons? Explain how his Mokuton, which he can produce with a thought, protecting him from a point blank island level explosion is being a glass cannon? His personal durability is around multi city block scaling from a standard high tier character unless you are saying he is weaker than your standard high tier? If so then we will need to have a look at most of the Bleach team given most of their feats are obtained from other characters. Speed is a good example of this.

He is regarded by most after that feat to have one of the best defences in the HST through abilities alone. Feats wise its far superior to Zanka no Tachi whos calcs dont exceed 300-400 megatons per second so its going to be hard pressed to burn through it at any decent level of speed to actually block his attacks. Let alone stop 1000 hands raining down on his old ass. Just because he uses heat energy to fuel his attacks does not make it any more powerful against wood that is able to take gigatons worth of energy in an instant and not so much as deform because of it. If he even tries to burn it with his Bankai the old man is getting slapped into the ground and then crushed under a tree. If anyones durability is crap its his, beyond his shield he has no means to actually defend himself for a barrage of wooden fists that are strong enough to catch a Bijuu Bomb and Susanoos blade in mid air.

And while good movement speed has yet to be shown for them, what they lack in speed they make up for in reactions with him blocking the sword swing from susanoo and the Bijuu Bomb which he was not only able to react to but counter and also do so by changing its trajectory.

Exlain to me how either of them will deal with Guan Yin let alone the spam of wood release he alone is able to output? You claim Bleach team has hax like they have none of their own, did you forget about Advent Flowering Trees and Tsukuyomi? Both of which can be activated at incredible speeds by either of them and will knock them out long enough for Hashirama to drop a mountain on their heads. In regards to Tuskuyomi, it's far more applicable in combat than Kyoka Suigetsu as it serves better for subterfuge and long term manipulation. While it can be used in battle its nowhere near the level that Tsukuyomi is able to output instantly through eye contact, Not to mention it has a much faster activation time and given that no Captain to date has shown any resistance against illusions at all they can be caught in it. He is going to have a hard time fooling Hashirama with KS when he is milking Senjutsu inside the head of the Wood Golem while leveling the ground around him with Guan Yin.

Both of them have limited precog so that makes up for the speed loss (But given their status inside Naruto they are more than able to get speed scaling from FRS at mach 20 Bleach only has mach 23 speed, dont make them out to be so fast they could blitz two people how have more than enough reaction feats to block and counter anything they can throw at them)

Any hax they have is swiftly dealt with via wood spam and Wood Golem cloaked in Susanoo. In all honesty Madara nad Hashirama can control the flow of the batter to a far greater level than Yamamoto and Aizen can.

Aizen has displayed nothing in his final form that would even scratch Hashirama Mokuton, and the only thing he is good for here is using illusions which are swiftly dealt with via quick activation of Tsukuyomi.

Hashirama and Madara have displayed more than enough to win this. People here are selling them incredibly short given they displayed more superior and actually quantifable feats in one chapter than Aizen and Yamamoto did combined in their final few. To call them glass cannons is a horrible downplay of the above scans. Both have durability around Mountain - Island level with their respected jutsu, Yamamoto and Aizen are getting crushed under Guan Yin and there is nothing they can do to stop it.

The advantage they have in hax is so small that is not even worth arguing over when the opposition can spam a city wide forest on your ass before you can use it.

Post by taichokage (17,042 posts) See mini bio Level 20
That's with Mokuton as a defense. His personal durability isn't showcased but based on most Naruto characters it isn't that high. Outside of the Jinchuriki and Raikage, most have relatively poor durability. In terms of durability Naruto isn't one of the better anime. It more emphasizes on strategy, and great versatility and in the case of the top tiers, mass destruction. And Yamamoto's bankai shouldn't be measured in force but heat. 15,000,000 degrees C can burn any earthly substance. Force doesn't matter. Tenchi Kaiji would blow through Hashirama's Mokuton like nothing regardless of its force. And I don't see Hashirama defending against a Kurohitsugi spell from Aizen or getting past his regeneration. And city wide forest you mention? Yamamoto engulfed Karakura in his flames and could have destroyed it multiple times over. He also mostly snuffed out said explosion with his physical body alone. Both Aizen and Yamamoto are also foremost kido masters able to use level 90 with no incantation. What's to stop them from binding their opponents? Not even all kido can be blocked such as Kurohitsugi or Sho.
Post by Yusuke52 (454 posts) See mini bio Level 16


That's with Mokuton as a defense. His personal durability

His personal durability does not matter one bit unless they can get through his Mokuton which going by feats and calcs they cant. So its pointless to question it.

15,000,000 degrees C can burn any earthly substance.

Its measured in calcs because we dont debate based on statements and assumptions. The 15 million degress has absolutely no evidence to support that claim so its a bassless assumption on your part, anyone with half a brain knows not to quote this in a battle as you have absolutely nothing to prove it with.

What we know for sure is that his Bankai outputs triple digit megaton level heat energy per second with East and has a slightly lower reading with West, Hashirama took a gigaton level attack with no trouble at all. His defence is taking his Bankai with no trouble at all, you have to prove that it can output energy in the Gigatons for it to be a viable form of attack against him. If you cant then you have to show that its not heat energy being released and its some form of conceptual attack that can bypass his wood, if you cant do either then im afraid to say hashiramas wood is going to slap him across the landscape before he can burn it all up. You cant wank his Bankai anymore when clear limits have been calced for it. You want to dispute the calc then go ahead and dispute it, it holds more standing that yourself or Yamamoto making a claim and then having absolutely nothing to back it up with as it actually gives numbers and shows how to get said values. All you have done is spout what Yamamoto and Aizen have claimed without so much as a shread of quantifiable evidence to back it up with.

Tenchi Kaiji would blow through Hashirama's Mokuton like nothing regardless of its force.

I never once mentioned force, I said energy, and that covers kenetic to heat, both of which are present in a bomb and at roughly equal levels to my understanding, (I believe at most 50 percent of energy inside an explosive is turned into thermal radiation, or heat energy in this case, upon detonation). A 4 gigaton energy based explosion outputs more quantifable heat energy than Yamamotos bankai ever displayed. Show me some quantifiable feats or its all baseless assumptions on your part. There goes your attempt at putting words into my mouth.

And I don't see Hashirama defending against a Kurohitsugi spell from Aizen or getting past his regeneration.

Aside from going sage and summoning a mountain sized Guan Yin to break through it? If it failed to keep ichigo inside it sure as hell aint keeping Susanoo or the Wood Golem inside let alone Guan Yin.

Once again show some quantifiable feats or its baseless assumptions.

What makes you think he would even resort to Kido in his final form much less take the time to fully chant one when Hashirama or Madara can just spam a forest on his ass while he does so. the strongest attack he took was Mugetsu, so hashirama is curshing him under Guan Yin and keeping it there is more than enough to stop him from doing anything. You cant claim he can regen through attacks beyond his shown ability. No matter what was stated on the manga, he goes down to an attack greater than Mugetsu in a battle scenairo, so Susanoo takes care of that problem.

Yamamoto engulfed Karakura in his flames and could have destroyed it multiple times over.

An unspecified area greater than a small town (Aizens words) is Town level+. A bijuu bomb from any Bijuu past Shikaku is calced into 4 gigatons worth of destructive energy, that puts it on island level, far beyond anything Bleach has ever shown. And said feat required him to die in the process, Bijuu can spam city busters and not have to kill themselves doing so, not impressive one bit in this regard.

So once again I say gigaton level durable Wood Golems coated in Susanoo are being brought down on their ass.

What's to stop them from binding their opponents?

What is to stop Hashirama from binding them with Wood Dragon? It's displayed the strength to not only bind Kurama but also drain its energy. This works both ways the problem is even should they somehow get bound, which wont happen until pigs fly mind you, they can still control already active Mokuton and Susanoo so it wont do jack shit to stop the onslaught and even while immobilized they are still going to slap them into the ground.

Gonna have to try alot harder than that to put them beyond current Naruto levels

You make alot of claims based on statements without a single quantifable feat to back it up.

This is Bleach wank at its finest, claiming that he has 15 million degree flames at face value yet the ground under his feat was perfectly fine. Given Juhabach and his statement of being turned to dust if his blut vein was not active would mean the ground at his feet would be burning up, cracking and likely just outright meling just by him standing there. Yet it didnt, so once again show me some feats or its a bassless assumption and a no limits fallacy when clear limits are shown and calced to.

Kurohitsugi stopping something larger than a mountain? No limits fallacy.

Binding Kido working on something similar? No limits fallacy.

Any of their attacks even remotely harming a Mokuton formation that is able to take a 4 gigaton level explosion point blank and not have a scratch on it? No Limits fallacy, and grasping at some straws once again to try and push Bleach above Naruto but failing spectacularly.

When you can actually construct an argument using quantifable feats and less use of fallacious statements get back to me, otherwise my argument still stands, Unlike Yamamoto and Aizen as far as the battle is concerned.

Post by ShinsuiDreyar (25 posts) See mini bio Level 7

this is dumb old man yammi would solo them just by standing near them so he god stomps and then baby shakes both hashi and madara

aizen would do the same thing just worst

there no way they would hurt aizen or yammi

Post by taichokage (17,042 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Don't know why you sound so upset. I'm not arguing with you. Don't know how much more specific 15,000,000 degrees can get. If you doubt a specific power statement as that, then you have to take every characted statement with a grain of salt. And this is anime not real world physics. Just because the ground wasnt gone doesnt mean he wasnt 15,000,000 degrees. Kizaru should cause earthly damage when he travels at light speed so I guess he isnt a light man. And they don't need to Chant kido, nor could Hashirama catch the flying speedsters with his Mokuton, but again he has no defense for some kido. And Ichigo broke Kurohitsugi because he is physically more powerful than anyone in the HST has shown and beacuse he was a being beyond Aizen's dimension. Literally. His reiatsu could not be felt because Ichigo was too far above him. And I don't know what these calcs are saying but the biju bombs minus the Jubi have destroyed single mountains not islands unless you are talking very small islands.
Post by Yusuke52 (454 posts) See mini bio Level 16

@taichokage said:

Don't know why you sound so upset.

Im not upset at all, dont know where you got that from. Im just tired of seeing Bleach wanked to high heavens with not so much as a clear quantifiable scan to prove any of it.

Don't know how much more specific 15,000,000 degrees can get. If you doubt a specific power statement as that, then you have to take every characted statement with a grain of salt. And this is anime not real world physics. Just because the ground wasnt gone doesnt mean he wasnt 15,000,000 degrees.

I dont know how much more specific than the Solar System you can get in regards to Cell. It works both ways my friend, unless he displays feats akin to his claims, or people around him display things that makes said claim more likely, his claims do not get passed and it makes them hyperbole until such a time as it actually does what it says on the tin. You should know how the feats or GTFO game works by now right?

The claim was that had Royd Lloyd not have had his blut vein active he would have been turned to dust instantly, the contradiction is that level of heat should have scorched the Earth he stood on among other things. Yet it did nothing to back up that claim putting its actual level into question. Bleach is not above using calcs to get a clear level of power. Every form of fiction follows this trend of calcs now to cut out all the bullshit people keep claiming, much like what you are doing with Yamamoto saying he has 15 million degrees wraped around him when nothing shown by his Bankai even suggests that is true.

Unless you are saying that the Earth he stands on is more durable than a quincy using blut vein then clearly he is talking crap. His Bankai is nowhere near these levels that he claims because if they were it would have done much more than what it displayed.

This is fact no amount of back and forth between us will change this at all. Its up to Kubo to show us the feats, if he does a bad job of doing it then the feat sucks because of it. Kishi put work into showing off his battes much better than Kubo ever has, he just puts ink on a page and calls it a battle. Kishi goes the extra mile and adds great levels of detail to show everything, something Kubo will never do as he likes to drench his work in ink making all the good fights and moments look crap as hell. But I digress, this is more me hating Kubo's Art Style, What im saying is because he puts so little detail into his work his feats come out at much lower values than most would like, unfortunately we can only work with what has been shown, so unless you have some better scans that I have not seen then he is staying at city level.

As for the bolded, I do, as does everyone else I would like to think. The only exception to this is if the claim itself actually has some ground from which to scale it. Rare case overall but I will never take a character statement above displayed feats unless its so obvious that I have no reason to disbelieve it until something comes up that puts it into question. Nothing about his Bankai gave the impression of 15 million degrees and the feats he displayed matched this. No one else in his verse has ever displayed anything even remotely close to his suspossed 15 million degrees so tell me why I should believe something that has no ground to stand on what so ever?

I dont need character statements to boost Hashirama and Madara, they have done more than enough on screen to warrent these levels of power. You on the other hand have to rely on Yamamoto's claims in order for you to put him above the 2 despite myself and many other people saying that its an obvious hyperbole given nothing it displayed puts it even close to that level.

Kizaru should cause earthly damage when he travels at light speed so I guess he isnt a light man.

The logic used here is so bad that I honestly dont know what to say.

You know very little about science in this regard clearly as this would only happen if he retains his mass while in light form, which he does not. Which makes this false and still alows for calcs to be used. This is of course assuming that you were joking around about "light" moving at "lightspeed" inside the Earths atmosphere would cause actual damage to the Earth. I think you need to go back and retake science if you think light causes damage to the ground when it enters the Earths atmosphere.

Speaking for the rest of fiction this is ommited if its clear they are infact moving at lightspeed and nothing is happening if something is happening then the feat remains valid none the less. Fiction or not, unless otherwise stated all of our values apply to a fictional verse and can be quantified feats as such, you can use any example you want to try and dispute this but it will still stand none the less.

Only objects with mass traveling at lightspeed would cause damage to or planet, when Kizaru turns into light, HE TURNS INTO LIGHT. He becomes photons more or less and that is how Yata no Kagami works.

If you keep making silly claims like this then you will destroy your argument for me. Less work for me I guess but I digress.

And they don't need to Chant kido, nor could Hashirama catch the flying speedsters with his Mokuton

They will need to chant to get the levels of power required to even so much as slow them down. And catch flying speedsters? You act like mach 23 makes a huge difference against a mach 20 scaled fighter with precog, Yamamoto will go straight to Bankai in a bloodlusted form, and unless you saw something I didn't in the manga this is based around CQC, he will fight on the ground not in the air. Tell me again how reacting to a mach 30 Bijuu Bomb will somehow not give him the reaction time needed to track and counter a mach 23 fighter?

Even if he does get into the air what exactly is he going to do to evade and stop the Guan Yin, a construct that dwarfed the Mountains in the area and Kurama? He gets slapped back into the ground and the cycle repeats, going into the air is pointless for someone who when using his strongest form fights in CQC. And good luck on him winning a sword fight with Susanoo, a single swing from that and its Juhabach's sword all over again except this time his body is going to be torn to pieces.

This leaves Aizen and his 7 megaton attacks to try and break through their defence. at which point susanoo cuts him down too.

but again he has no defense for some kido.

Aside from a wall of wood cloaked in Susanoo both of which were able to tank a point blank 4 gigaton level explosion with no effort at all? Gonna have to try a bit harder than that. What Kido can either of them use that bypasses durability again? Thats right none what so ever, so trying to use that as an "feat" is going to leave your argument rather thin. Kido is not as hax and unblockable as you like to think it is.

And Ichigo broke Kurohitsugi because he is physically more powerful than anyone in the HST has shown and beacuse he was a being beyond Aizen's dimension.

You base this "strength" off a single scan that has nothing to quantify? Good luck with that one.

Bleach wank at its finest, using an unquantifable feat that has absolutely nothing to go on, and claims that it puts him above everyone else in the HST. If you even think that for a second Ichigo is anywhere near top tier One Piece or Naruto levels in strength then you need to consider actually reading through Naruto and One Piece again. Both have multiple feats that say otherwise and are far more quantifiable than breaking out of a black box with no defined levels of power other than a mentally unstable Aizen claiming "lawl gravity torrent" without giving a value for it. Hate to tell you but all mass and gravity distorts space and time to some degree so the gravity inside that box for all we know is the same as the Earths, absurd I know but unless you have something that says different the possibility remains.

Quantify this feat if you are so sure its above anything ever displayed in the HST strength wise other than just claiming it is because of "lawl statements". You clearly know how durable the walls of Kurohitsugi are if you make this claim, would I be correct? I thought you would have learned by now that this shit aint going to work with me, I want feats so given me some quantifiable feats to work with otherwise its about as durable as glass unless you can show otherwise.

The burden of proof is on you, I have displayed more than enough relevant information and scans to put them above Aizen and Yamamoto. Its your job to show me what they can do with clear scans and calcs that showcase their power.

You are better off using his shockwaves and blocking Aizens blade rather than this Black Box of hyperbole and unquantifiable claims, because you wont get too far using that.

Garp and Naruto displayed strength well above Ichigo with his cannon ball feat and Naruto kicking away those Bijuu Dama with absolute ease not to mention sheer virtue of size of his Kurama Mode alone dictates that his physical attacks should be around town level, well beyond the best Bleach has to offer so far in the strength department. Top tiers in Naruto and One Piece have feats of strength that make Bleach look like a child.

Madara's Susanoo was strong enough to cleave the tops of multiple mountains with a single swing and wreck the land around the base of his Susanoo, this alone puts his Susanoo above Ichigo in strength. The Wood Golem also grabbed a Bijuu Bomb and caught Madara's sword swing which also gives it strength feats beyond Bleach.

So there goes him being the strongest person in the HST by miles. Might need to rethink that, before you make such an absurd claim again.

Literally. His reiatsu could not be felt because Ichigo was too far above him.

I read the manga, and this means nothing at all in regards to this battle. Feats are better than vague energy readings from a mentally unstable Aizen.

And I don't know what these calcs are saying but the biju bombs minus the Jubi have destroyed single mountains not islands unless you are talking very small islands.

These calcs are saying what a calc generally says. It calculates the feat based on resonable scaling so we can get an actual value and not go based on assumptions like you are doing with Yamamoto.

They have the reaction feat from Hashirama under consideration right now and should that be accepted, any chance you had of claiming they have the speed advantage is lost and most top tiers will get a speed boost beyond Bleach levels. Lets see how this plays out anyway.

Island level starts at 1 gigaton and upwards, its still a great jump beyond city level where Yamamoto is currently at and unless he gets island level energy output he is going to fair about as well as part one Naruto in breaking through the Wood Golem or Susanoo. Which is not at all, or at the very least not without alot of effort on his part.





You have a little look on there and you will see that Naruto and Bee's Combined Bijuu Bomb is calced at 2.6 Teratons. Now I am downplaying to a Gigaton value on purpose as I see no reason to say that Kurama is able to dish out 1.3 teraton level attacks in its prime under the control of a bloodlusted Madara with an intent to kill... Joking aside I do this because every other Bijuu Bomb has been around 4 - 6 Gigatons and I see no reason to amp this to a teraton level feat without a proper calc proving it.

The one below that is the Decide arc calcs for Fragor, Ichigos Shockwave and his Mugetsu. Funny how I missed this revision and I have been putting them at levels they are no longer at going by the revised calcs. Ah well its been corrected now. Rather pathetic all in all but there you have it, your beloved Ichigo is quite a bit below what you thought he was. Hardly impressive at all given he must sacrifice all his energy to do his best attack (I see a trend forming in Bleach were to get the best damage output they have to more or less kill themselves or purge their energy in the process). I hope we see something much better from him in the weeks to come but I dont hold out much hope for a quantifable feat rather than the ink spills Kubo likes to give us and call "art". But once again I digress, these feats could change if someone decided to recalc them in which case I will post the new link but they wont change much. Bleach calcs never do.

Below that are the tanking feats from Naruto with levels applied to them where needed. Bee tanking his own Bijuu bomb calced at 4+ gigatons, Kurama is more than able to equal that level of power in his prime, making Hashirama's Wood Golem tanking said attack viable here and not open for discussion until you can boost Yamamoto into the gigaton level output.

The last one is interesting as this is ongoing and should it pass most of Naruto is likely going to get a lovely boost from it, unlikely that it will but all the same its a fun calc none the less. Not much point in me posting it but I thought it was a nice addition.

You will also see there that Aizen is right at the bottom there with his 7 mt fragor . Now Yamamoto's Bankai is at 330 odd megatons per second (In this range, not above 400 thats for sure) calc wise. What we know is that around half the energy of an explosion is heat based, we also know that the mountain ranges they destroyed were not just blasted apart but vaporised by the heat of the blast itself. So unless Yamamoto is able to output 2 gigatons worth of heat energy at a minimum, he is not breaking through something that tanked that level of heat casually, for you to continually deny this must mean that you can quantify his Bankai to this level, so by all means go right ahead and do so and stop wasting time with pointless statements from Yamamoto. No offence intended I would just rather get a clear and concise answer from you rather than read the same 15 million degree Bankai argument over and over again when everything it displayed contradicts his statement. The sooner you show me some Gigaton level feats from him, the sooner we can end this debate.

As it stands right now they are both getting slapped into the ground with mid difficulty at the most.

Post by bobokyo (122 posts) See mini bio Level 6

I'm leaning towards Yusuke52's arguments. Nice job man.

And no blitz will happen, both Naruto and Bleach characters has a top speed of just above Mach 20.

Mandatory Network

Submissions can take several hours to be approved.

Save ChangesCancel