Guts Vs Kisame!!!

Topic started by Fantasma on April 3, 2010. Last post by Fantasma 4 years, 5 months ago.
Post by Fantasma (360 posts) See mini bio Level 7
 Both are in character, not that it matters, because they always go for the kill.
Kisame has Samehada.
No Berserker armor. 
 Battle site.


Will Samehada, try to betray its master, because of Guts unnatural power and strength, can Guts stand up to, Kisame's ninjutsu and Samehada? Please use logic in your arguments, no need for heated discussions either.

Post by Dream (7,667 posts) See mini bio Level 21
Moderator
Sorry to say this, but this feels like a spite match. Kisame would be able to flood Guts and take him out before he has any chance at attacking. The guy's chakra reserves are ridiculous enough where he can spew an entire lake from his mouth and only those with massive reserves of chakra would get Samehada giddy enough to ditch Kisame. Not to mention he's extremely fast when battling enemies in the water where even a powerhouse like Killer Bee had trouble battling him. Guts might be able to endure abnormal amounts of punishment for a normal human, but Kisame's gonna slaughter him. Kisame has much more in his favor than Guts does.
Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Gutts regularly takes on and murders scores of monsters on a regular basis with barely any rest and barely time to recover between battles before he got a hold of Puck for on-site healing. Gutts, with or w/o the Armor, is still a beast and is still the only person with a weapon capable of rending a persons Astral Body. Samehada won't be giddy, he'll be scared shitless of Gutts's sword. Since Gutts doesn't use Chakra, Samehada is downright useless against the Dragon Slayer, which has built up an otherworldly force through simply having been used to rend and rip through so many apostles, psuedo-apostles and other inhuman creatures and spirits that cross over from the Interstace. 
 
Put it it this way; unless Kisame keeps his distance, Gutts is going to rip him apart. And also this fight has been done before.
Post by sinxism (348 posts) See mini bio Level 9

kisame, cuz he has healing factor , unlimited chakra, and he'll destroy guts using shadow clones.
Post by Walker696 (40 posts) See mini bio Level 4
Guts has quite a bit going for him but at the same time from what we have seen from Kisame, at the very least we can say they are somewhat equal (Guts wins at close range, Kisame wins at long range), but you have to remember the only Kisame we have seen fighting were his clones. A clone fought Killer Bee and Guy and even still the two of them barely won. Guy is way faster then Guts and I believe Killer Bee is more powerful (eight tails). Added to this is the fact that Kisame is an assassin  and has techniques used to killed people without them even knowing. He rarely if ever tries to get close to somebody unless he is going for a kill. Don't forget his sharks and his water bubbles on top of being able to make a moving lake. Imagine Guts stuck in that lake, trying to fight off the sharks, while trying to dodge Kisame. Its just to much for him
Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Gutts kills people all the time. He's killed thousands in the Hundred Year War when as just a regular man, albeit an absurdly strong one who already was around mach level in combat speed and reflexes and was at super-sonic levels when he's seen battling Apostles. The problem with "making a lake" is finding a correct area in which it can be contained, otherwise producing all that water is a waste since, without an enclosure, it'll just level out and probably not be more than an inch deep with soaking into the ground and spreading out. Also, that requires Kisame to perform his jutsu before Gutts can close the distance and rip through him.
 
Gutts is strong enough to literally slash through any of Kisame's jutsu, cause frankly I haven't seen any of them good enough to damage something of diamond hardness or better, and the Dragon Slayer is certainly better because of its empowerment. As I've said, Samehada is pretty much useless in this fight because Kisame sucks as a swordsman and Gutts doesn't give off or use chakra. As for Kisame and his clones, they all have the same abilities, the only real difference is Chakra distribution and the use of Samehada. There is really no difference in their overall skill when compared to the 'original'.
 
Put it like this. If Kisame can keep this a ranged battle, his chances of winning are pretty good. But if at any point Gutts can close the distance, Kisame is screwed out the ass. And also, Gutts does have his own ranged weapons. The repeating crossbow may not be much of a threat to Kisame, but the exploding bombs and Cannon-Hand would pose some concern if he's unprepared for such a tactic.
Post by Fantasma (360 posts) See mini bio Level 7
@Dream said:

" Sorry to say this, but this feels like a spite match. Kisame would be able to flood Guts and take him out before he has any chance at attacking. The guy's chakra reserves are ridiculous enough where he can spew an entire lake from his mouth and only those with massive reserves of chakra would get Samehada giddy enough to ditch Kisame. Not to mention he's extremely fast when battling enemies in the water where even a powerhouse like Killer Bee had trouble battling him. Guts might be able to endure abnormal amounts of punishment for a normal human, but Kisame's gonna slaughter him. Kisame has much more in his favor than Guts does. "

You see, the thing is both fighters start in character, I really don't think that Kisame would use his water release jutsus, right from the start, after all he is the best of the 7 Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist, he will quickly recognize Guts, as a swordmaster and fight him the way he usually does, head on. This can quickly turn into a mistake with Guts, I believe Samehada, can really be injured by Gut's Dragonslayer, not only because of the Dragonslayer's design and composition, after all it was desing to kill dragons, but also the amount of ethereal power inside it, by the hundreds, of supernatural beings and Apostles, it has slayed, and also I believe Guts to be a superior swordsman, this of course is open to speculation, but that is just my opinion. Now its true, that Kisame has many advantages, for example, the water release jutsus, water clones, and an insanely amount of chakra, but if he has already been injured by Guts, his jutsus and chakra, will be limited in someway or another, and I do believe if Kisame uses his water wave jutsu, that he use on team Gai, Guts could be in real trouble, but notice that the terrain, has many trees, that Guts could use, remember that Guts has superhuman strength, skill, speed and reflexes. The thing is that Guts has fought more powerful opponents than kisame, that doesn't necessarlly gives him the win, but certainly he won't be intimidated by Kisame, and certainly this isn't a spite match. I thought, on giving Guts the Berserker Armor, but that most certainly would have spelled doom for Kisame. Also, Guts has a great armament of weapons, including long range weapons, like the repeating crossbow, knives, bombs and the hand cannon, and not to mention one of the most imaginative and on the moment resourceful battle minds, I've have seen. I still see the match in favor of Kisame, but who knows?
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
kisame because of his water techniques as well as huge amounts of chakra and stamina, guts will not win once the battlefield is a giant lake. As well as a high level shinobi kisame will be very skilled in tactical fighting, ie using suiton bunshins, substitution ect. 
Post by Fantasma (360 posts) See mini bio Level 7
@ReiKai said:
" Gutts kills people all the time. He's killed thousands in the Hundred Year War when as just a regular man, albeit an absurdly strong one who already was around mach level in combat speed and reflexes and was at super-sonic levels when he's seen battling Apostles. The problem with "making a lake" is finding a correct area in which it can be contained, otherwise producing all that water is a waste since, without an enclosure, it'll just level out and probably not be more than an inch deep with soaking into the ground and spreading out. Also, that requires Kisame to perform his jutsu before Gutts can close the distance and rip through him.  Gutts is strong enough to literally slash through any of Kisame's jutsu, cause frankly I haven't seen any of them good enough to damage something of diamond hardness or better, and the Dragon Slayer is certainly better because of its empowerment. As I've said, Samehada is pretty much useless in this fight because Kisame sucks as a swordsman and Gutts doesn't give off or use chakra. As for Kisame and his clones, they all have the same abilities, the only real difference is Chakra distribution and the use of Samehada. There is really no difference in their overall skill when compared to the 'original'.  Put it like this. If Kisame can keep this a ranged battle, his chances of winning are pretty good. But if at any point Gutts can close the distance, Kisame is screwed out the ass. And also, Gutts does have his own ranged weapons. The repeating crossbow may not be much of a threat to Kisame, but the exploding bombs and Cannon-Hand would pose some concern if he's unprepared for such a tactic. "
Pretty much agree with this.
P.S.   I didn't saw the fight in the search option.
Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Actually it's not really much of an argument concerning swordplay. Really no one in Naruto has ever proven to be proficient with any kind of weapon except maybe Gai with Nunchuku. All the sword and blade users never indicated they had any proficiency with their weapons. Gutts is a tried and true swordsman with beastly skill and has demonstrated this numerous times in battle against other skilled opponents. Even way back before the whole deal with Apostles, a year prior to the Eclipse when he dropped Griffith with a single move. In the end, Gutts is one of the best fictional swordsman with Real skill and not using some kind of super-human impossible attack.
 
                
 

Post by Dream (7,667 posts) See mini bio Level 21
Moderator
@Fantasma:  I think you're overestimating Guts in physical attributes. Based on what I've seen of Berserk between both the anime and manga, his abilities to wield the Dragonslayer, endure great amounts of punishment and great mobility for a man of his size would make him appear to be of peak-human attributes at most. I agree that Samehada's reliability in this battle is reduced since Guts has no chakra to take and that being an abnormal weapon, the Dragonslayer would be able to hold up in a duel of swords with Samehada. While Guts has been shown to be capable of beating Apostles, it hasn't been a walk-in-the-park for him to beat them as he barely defeats the Snake Baron at the start of the series and he was being overwhelmed by Grunbeld to the point where he had to don the Berserker Armor just to get the edge over the heavily-armored Apostle. On the other hand, Kisame has proven capable of defeating Jinchuriki wielders only having to exert more serious effort when dealing with someone as powerful as Killer Bee. As long as Samehada is in his hands, Kisame's capable of regenerating any damage he receives in battle and can replenish his chakra reserves with it. He's also been shown to be physically strong to the point of overwhelming expert weapon wielders and taijutsu experts like Asuma and Might Guy with the former training rigorously to be in peak-human condition and having to release six of his chakra gates to beat a 30%-powered Kisame clone. On top of that, Kisame's chakra reserves are ridiculous enough where he's capable of spewing water to turn any battle environment into a lake where he would gain a massive advantage. No Apostle I've seen Guts engage in and win against in battle has been shown to be as fast or capable of altering the battle terrain as well as Kisame.
 
@ReiKai: The water spewing from Kisame's mouth has still been intense enough to create tidal waves where it would still drown out any unlucky foe within its vicinity which is especially an issue for Guts since without chakra, he's incapable of walking on its surface. Not to mention that Kisame's been shown to have the ability to control the intensity and movement of the water that he generates from his jutsu. Unlike Team Gai in this clip below who have the mobility to evade the incoming attack, Guts wouldn't have this advantage:
 
 
 
And your lake argument can't hold up. During Kisame's battle with Killer Bee in a forest, he has been shown to use a stronger variant of the technique from the video above where he makes the water he spews from the attack into a giant orb to contain any unlucky opponent who gets washed up into it.
 



 

As for cutting diamond, I assume this is in reference to Guts battling Grunbeld whose body and shield were densely armored. On his own strength, Guts couldn't cut through the shield of Grunbeld's human form and had to augment his strength with the Berserker Armor in order to get the job done.
Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
You do realize Gutts was brutally crippled before that fight even started, right? Given he had to slaughter a horde of Trolls and got in the face of one of the Godhand who literally tore through both his Physical and Astral body with a wound that after months hasyet to heal, and less than a day after receiving this crippling injury that continued to inflict him with both pain and draining his physical and mental strength, was forced to confront Gruenbeld and the Apostles in an attempt to stop them from killing Shierke's teacher. Gutts was so far from his normal peak it's not even funny. So, really, your argument concerning Gutts' strength is just ruined.
 
Also, that bubble is just an enlarged form of the Water Prison Jutsu that Zabuza used much earlier on in the 1st series. And which still requires him to get off before Gutts bisects him.
Post by Dream (7,667 posts) See mini bio Level 21
Moderator
@ReiKai: You do realize also that Guts is used to shrugging off pain from injuries he sustains in battle which doesn't effect his full capabilities in battle. This being the case when battling Adon's Hundred Man Army and the countless hordes of apostles found within the Eclipse. The bubble still gives Kisame a massive advantage as he is capable of breathing in and moving at great speeds in the water while the mobility of human opponents like Guts will be strained from the water and they are running on limited time from oxygen loss. Plus, how exactly do you think Guts would be able to get a clean shot on Kisame if he gets washed away from Kisame's water jutsu?
Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
However, as used to it as Gutts is, he has never before had his very soul run through by one of the Godhand which was an injury no one could deal with, and it still continues to affect him. Gutt was substantially weakened right before his fight with Grunbeld. Of all the War Demons, Zodd is still their greatest fighter whom Gutts can match. However Gutts was getting hammered by Grunbeld because he was so weakened he could barely do more than defend. It was like before with the Holy Iron Chain Knights when they managed to catch Gutts, he was so wounded and weakend from fighting an Apostle and her hordes that he could only push himself for about 2-3 attacks before his strength gave out. Gutts was in even worse condition when he faced Grunbeld.
Post by Fantasma (360 posts) See mini bio Level 7
@Dream said:

" @Fantasma:  I think you're overestimating Guts in physical attributes. Based on what I've seen of Berserk between both the anime and manga, his abilities to wield the Dragonslayer, endure great amounts of punishment and great mobility for a man of his size would make him appear to be of peak-human attributes at most. I agree that Samehada's reliability in this battle is reduced since Guts has no chakra to take and that being an abnormal weapon, the Dragonslayer would be able to hold up in a duel of swords with Samehada. While Guts has been shown to be capable of beating Apostles, it hasn't been a walk-in-the-park for him to beat them as he barely defeats the Snake Baron at the start of the series and he was being overwhelmed by Grunbeld to the point where he had to don the Berserker Armor just to get the edge over the heavily-armored Apostle. On the other hand, Kisame has proven capable of defeating Jinchuriki wielders only having to exert more serious effort when dealing with someone as powerful as Killer Bee. As long as Samehada is in his hands, Kisame's capable of regenerating any damage he receives in battle and can replenish his chakra reserves with it. He's also been shown to be physically strong to the point of overwhelming expert weapon wielders and taijutsu experts like Asuma and Might Guy with the former training rigorously to be in peak-human condition and having to release six of his chakra gates to beat a 30%-powered Kisame clone. On top of that, Kisame's chakra reserves are ridiculous enough where he's capable of spewing water to turn any battle environment into a lake where he would gain a massive advantage. No Apostle I've seen Guts engage in and win against in battle has been shown to be as fast or capable of altering the battle terrain as well as Kisame.

Peak human attributes at most???  I really must disagree with you here, I think this is a given fact, to almost anyone who follows Berserk, that Guts is clearly on a superhuman level. Let's judge his physical attributes:
Speed: Clearly superhuman, he has moved so fast, that multiple superhuman Apostles haven't been able to follow his movements, and they have clearly stated, that no human can move in such a fashion, even with the Dragonslayer and fully armored.
Strength: Just wielding the Dragonslayer is proof enough, remember that  Master Godo himself stated, that no human could ever wield it. Numerous ridiculous feats, through the manga.
Durability: The amount of punishment Guts has taken and continue, is really on the borderline of ridiculous, even before being the Black Swordsman during the Eclipse, when he himself cuts off his own hand, and the demons take out his eye, he is just continuing to watch Griffith, without even flinching.Surviving and resisting, the vast amount of damage inflicted upon him, by vast supernatural or superhuman creatures, that no peak human or even various supehuman beings in the world comics could ever hope to sustain. And there is the fact that he continuously fights demons/monsters 24/7, even without sleeping for days. 
Reflexes/Reaction Time: Has been able to block or deflect, superhuman attacks that no human eye or body, could folllow, once again stated by Apostles themselves, and once again here, we see his strength, moving the Dragonslayer, like he was holding a normal sword, to block at those speeds. Even lets say Captain America, who is peak human and in the borderline of superhuman, can't do what Guts has demonstrated.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Fantasma: Well certainly Gut's attributes are greater than cap america or the like, but my concern is once kisame floods the arena (which is likely to be his first move) , how will guts win under water against kisame fused with sameheda? 
Post by Fantasma (360 posts) See mini bio Level 7
@hitsusatsu11 said:
" @Fantasma: Well certainly Gut's attributes are greater than cap america or the like, but my concern is once kisame floods the arena (which is likely to be his first move) , how will guts win under water against kisame fused with sameheda?  "
In the top, you can see the picture of the battlefield, and you can see its not even terrain,its not arena like also, for the ones saying that Kisame, could simply make a lake and drown him, or at least hinder his movement, to make a lake or to simply fill a great area with water, you need to contain it, be it, by an artificial hole or something like a dam, or just the water will simply disperse within the area. Also. I don't think that will be Kisame's first move, as I stated before he will likely go head first, into close combat(swordbattle)
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Fantasma: Kisame's lake moves with him, its a self-contained sphere see his fight with kirabi.
Post by Dream (7,667 posts) See mini bio Level 21
Moderator
@Fantasma said:

Peak human attributes at most???  I really must disagree with you here, I think this is a given fact, to almost anyone who follows Berserk, that Guts is clearly on a superhuman level. Let's judge his physical attributes: Speed: Clearly superhuman, he has moved so fast, that multiple superhuman Apostles haven't been able to follow his movements, and they have clearly stated, that no human can move in such a fashion, even with the Dragonslayer and fully armored. Strength: Just wielding the Dragonslayer is proof enough, remember that  Master Godo himself stated, that no human could ever wield it. Numerous ridiculous feats, through the manga. Durability: The amount of punishment Guts has taken and continue, is really on the borderline of ridiculous, even before being the Black Swordsman during the Eclipse, when he himself cuts off his own hand, and the demons take out his eye, he is just continuing to watch Griffith, without even flinching.Surviving and resisting, the vast amount of damage inflicted upon him, by vast supernatural or superhuman creatures, that no peak human or even various supehuman beings in the world comics could ever hope to sustain. And there is the fact that he continuously fights demons/monsters 24/7, even without sleeping for days.  Reflexes/Reaction Time: Has been able to block or deflect, superhuman attacks that no human eye or body, could folllow, once again stated by Apostles themselves, and once again here, we see his strength, moving the Dragonslayer, like he was holding a normal sword, to block at those speeds. Even lets say Captain America, who is peak human and in the borderline of superhuman, can't do what Guts has demonstrated. "

Speed, Reaction Time: Give me some evidence for these claims. I still find this hard to believe unless his physical abilities are enhanced with the Berserker Armor as I'm still under the mentality of what I've seen that the guy has with such skills being peak-human levels.
Strength: Enough peak-human characters are known to carry BFS's (My-Hime's Mikoto, Final Fantasy's Squall and Cloud, Naruto's Zabusa, Rurouni Kenshin's Sano) to the point where someone like Guts wielding one isn't too impressive, especially since Kisame's Samehada also qualifies as one.
Durability: One area I can agree with since the guy's battled enough foes and lived through both taking and inflicting punishment his entire life.
 
I'll agree that Kisame would save the water spewing for later since he normally starts off battles with trying to shred up his foes with Samehada to see what kind of threat they would pose to him in battle and/or for personal amusement when battling a weaker foe. While skill and technique is in Guts' favor, strength is in favor of Samehada which combined with his speed would give Guts the fight of his life up until the fish-man has amused himself enough to flood the battlefield. As I explained above, Kisame can use his water spewing technique to flood the battlefield and mold a sphere of water within the vicinity of where both he and his opponent are in to keep the opponent from fleeing. With Kisame's speed greatly enhanced in the water and Guts having no oxygen to breathe, the water prison will be Guts' grave. If he should somehow get injured by an attack from Guts, Kisame will just regenerate himself of the damage inflicted by drawing chakra from Samehada. This isn't a battle that Guts will be able to win.
Post by Kuma_From_Argentina (6,763 posts) See mini bio Level 13
But even so, Kismae doesnt attack directly with Water Jutsus and he wont percive any Chackra from Guts so he could grow overconfindent (He have some tendecy to do it, even Itachi say it so in the time they attacked Konoha) and try (like it was said in this thread) to overpower him with Samehada and his over average swordsmanship skills, and if he takes long enough Guts could cut him open and try to finish it with his Cannon.... 
 
And the regeneration of Kisame is using the chakra Samehada can absorb (since Guts doesnt have Chackra) it could be greatly disminished, and you need to take in acount that even if Samehada is alive and is extremely durable Guts could break it, that the sheer level of skill and brute force Guts could use....  
 
Other point to look over is Samehada itself, it's a cursed blade, so we cant be sure if the dark powers of the Dragon Slayer Sword could react in some form with Samehada. Or the fusion between Kisame and Samehada, could the monster killing magic affect Samehada?
Mandatory Network

Submissions can take several hours to be approved.

Save ChangesCancel