Battles

It's this scan, Majin Vegeta is clearly impressed that Goku at SSJ2 has surpassed Teen Gohan at SSJ2 which for me is clear evidence that Vegeta himself had not done so as a SSJ2 as he can only match SSJ2 Goku as Majin Vegeta.

And I agree with @niBBit about Gohan being mentally weakened, he only seemed to get pumped up after Goku motivated him and then he proceeded to overpower SPC. As well as having his left arm shattered, I don't think Gohan at the start of that ki battle would've been at anywhere near 100% whereas SPC was 100%.

Can someone show me where it's stated that Majin charm actually increases Vegeta's strength significantly?

Here is my reasoning that it does not.

Majin charm has 3 possibilities: it increases strength by a fixed amount (e.g. 1000 power level), it increases strength by a fixed percentage, or it increases strength by a percentage which is related to the power level of the recipient of the charm. It is highly unlikely that more complex formulas are used since this is a kids/teenager's show and not science fiction.

possibility 1: fixed power level.

Vegeta is pretty much unaffected. Anyone with good knowledge of the anime would know exactly why I say this.

possibility 2: fixed percentage

We know for sure that spopovich's strength under influence of majin spell was AT LEAST several hundred percent higher than his original strength. He gained flight, massive endurance, ability to survive his head being twisted 180 degrees, and ability to use energy blasts. He absolutely dominated Videl, whereas original spopovich couldn't last a single minute against hercule.

What does this mean? This means that if it was a fixed percentage, goku would be SEVERAL TIMES stronger than non-majin vegeta. therefore non-majin ssj2 vegeta would have to be at MOST half the strength of kid ssj2 gohan, and probably much less, which puts him at the same power as cell games super saiyan goku. this would mean that vegeta actually got much weaker since the cell games because going super saiyan 2 only puts him at super saiyan goku's level from 7 years back. unless dbz author developed some serious hate for vegeta, this is impossible.

possibility 3: changing percentage depending on the power level of the person under spell

this has 2 sub possibilities

a) the stronger the person, the higher the multiplier: same problem as possibility 2 but much worse

b) the stronger the person, the lower the multiplier: vegeta gets no boost because he is probably millions or even billions of times stronger than spopovich before majin charm. even if a logarithmic formula is involved, vegeta would get almost no boost from majin charm

more complex formulas are highly unlikely. this isn't star trek.

tldr: i showed strong evidence that majin charm doesn't actually do much for vegeta

therefore both forms of vegeta wins

@axavierhansz: The Majin transformation works by significantly increasing the power of the one it is cast upon depending on how evil they were in the first place, hence why it wouldn't work on Goku or Gohan. Therefore Vegeta actually received a massive power boost, far more than Spopovich would have done.

Obviously the transformation does grant a big power boost because SSJ2 Vegeta (who had been training on his own on Earth) was able to match SSJ2 Goku (who had been training with the Kai's and had the benefit of receiving far more training and far more ki to train with. This was shown when Goku couldn't use his SSJ3 transformation as effectively on Earth as he could in the other dimension.)

As well as this, Goku was likely to have been at the very peak of the SSJ2 transformation which is why he was also able to become a SSJ3 and as we know, Vegeta never achieved this transformation.

In conclusion it's clear to see that the Majin transformation did indeed give Vegeta a massive power boost.

@ohgodwhy: @ohgodwhy said:

@axavierhansz: The Majin transformation works by significantly increasing the power of the one it is cast upon depending on how evil they were in the first place, hence why it wouldn't work on Goku or Gohan. Therefore Vegeta actually received a massive power boost, far more than Spopovich would have done.

Obviously the transformation does grant a big power boost because SSJ2 Vegeta (who had been training on his own on Earth) was able to match SSJ2 Goku (who had been training with the Kai's and had the benefit of receiving far more training and far more ki to train with. This was shown when Goku couldn't use his SSJ3 transformation as effectively on Earth as he could in the other dimension.)

As well as this, Goku was likely to have been at the very peak of the SSJ2 transformation which is why he was also able to become a SSJ3 and as we know, Vegeta never achieved this transformation.

In conclusion it's clear to see that the Majin transformation did indeed give Vegeta a massive power boost.

What are you talking about bro?

Did you even read my post? I suggest you read it again because you haven't addressed ANY of my points.

You brought up a good point about power increase depending on level of evil. However, I feel I have solid evidence to refute your theory:

Vegeta is downright mean and selfish. But evil? Not by Buu saga he wasn't. Within hours after receiving the Majin charm, Vegeta self-destructed in an attempt to save the planet, WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE MAJIN CHARM WHICH INCREASES HIS EVIL.

To summarize: Vegeta + increased evil by majin charm = willing to sacrifice self for planet

therefore non-majin vegeta = not evil. selfish, mean, angry, but not even a little bit evil.

therefore if the more evil you are the stronger you get from majin charm, vegeta would only gain a little strength.

anyway go back and read my post. i re-read my own post to make sure i didn't make errors just now, so i'm quite sure you didn't even read my post.

@SpeedForceSpider: Yeah its weird i've been PM some people and they never got those :S maybe its the site or the fact that i use Opera witch sometimes go's all beserk on me :)

My info comes mostly from the Anime not from the Manga so thats a bad thing on my part i admit, if SPC wasn't stuggling like he did on the Anime (i trust you :P) then SPC is stronger than Gohan. Using Anime here, Gohan wasn't giving it his all, he was doubting himself the whole time witch WILL affect performance no matter how you look at it.

When SPC was pushing Gohan during their beam struggle, Gohan told Goku that he was just a kid and that he had a chance to beat Cell but could't blablabla all that emo stuff, Goku then told him that he need to man up, Gohan then retaliates pushing the beam more in the middle but then SPC yells *Don't you realize yet that you're up against the perfect weapon!* and then his beam grows bigger in witch Gohan replies *to strong!* even Goku was suprised and the beam was now close to Gohan. So Gohan who recieved his little pep talk and unleashed what he thought was enough power to overpower SPC (as the beam was pushed back in the middle) he still could't overpower SPC. Goku replied *Now what! i told him to give everything he had...wait, what if he's still* Goku then told Gohan that if he was worried what would happend to the planet (or friends can't remember) that all the damage could be fixed with the Dragonballs so he should't hold anything back to witch Gohan said *yeah but...* showing a hint that he was maybe scared to blast him in fear of killing his friends or harming the planet, then SPC blasts away the other fighters and Gohan in a rage, not only pushing the beam away from him but all the way towards Cell in witch Cell had difficulty pushing it back, showing us that Gohan wasn't tapped out the first time Goku yelled at him and that he had more to give.

You also have to factor in that Gohan tanked a nasty shot from Cell witch devastated his arm and definatly reduced his energy as it took Gohan a couple of seconds to open his eyes and getting up. Couple that with his constant self doubt Gohan for sure wasn't at 100%. Talking about Anime i say Gohan SSJ2>SPC, Manga could be different like you said because indeed Anime tends to drag fights along so perhaps SPC (Manga)>Gohan SSJ2>SPC (Anime) :)

@axavierhansz: What was one of the first things Vegeta did in his majin form? I believe it was to kill 100s of innocent people in the crowd, yeah I'm fairly sure he's pretty evil.

I read your post, but I didn't agree with any of the points so I ignored it.

@ohgodwhy said:

@axavierhansz: What was one of the first things Vegeta did in his majin form? I believe it was to kill 100s of innocent people in the crowd, yeah I'm fairly sure he's pretty evil.

I read your post, but I didn't agree with any of the points so I ignored it.

So you're saying that a guy that kills 100 people but sacrifices himself to save billions is evil?

Again, I'm not saying Vegeta is pure hearted or good or anything. But anyone who sacrifices his life to save others cannot be classified as Evil. Furthermore, keep in mind that the Majin charm increases his original level of evil. Vegeta kills 100 people AFTER receiving the majin charm. In other words, he killed 100 people WHILE IN A STATE OF MAGICALLY INCREASED EVIL. In that same state of MAGICALLY INCREASED EVIL, he blows himself up to save the planet, EVEN THOUGH he knows that in the afterlife he will suffer in hell. Again, I stress that this selfless act was while in a state of artificially increased evil. Therefore Vegeta's normal evilness is very very low. Therefore if Vegeta's strength is increased based on his amount of evil, he would gain nearly zero power.

You say you read my post. Which point didn't you agree with? All of them? How about instead of just saying you're wrong, post what was wrong with my reasoning so we can have an intelligent discussion? Or are you a troll?

@axavierhansz: Yes, I'm a troll. Well done you got me.

First of all, Vegeta wouldn't have sacrificed himself for the Earth, clearly he doesn't care about humans because he just killed hundreds of them for no reason. The only reason why I think he sacrificed himself for was to save his son and his wife, who he does care about. That's two people.

How about the millions/billions of aliens that Vegeta killed throughout his entire life? Does one good act make up for the years of evil he committed? He's clearly got evil in his heart but he became a lot more tame after gaining a family and friends but like I and Piccolo stated, that wouldn't make up for a lifetime of evil.

So like I said, Vegeta is at his core evil, hence why he gained a massive power up as Majin Vegeta.

Then I suppose you can look at how much of a powerup that Spopovich got. I doubt that he in his entire life time killed even 0.001% of the people that Vegeta killed and Spopovich too received a massive power up.

I also posted a scan above which showed that Vegeta was impressed that Goku SS2 had surpassed SSJ2 Teen Gohan's PL, why would Vegeta be impressed by such a feat if he himself had also surpassed SSJ2 Teen Gohan's PL.

In conclusion, I believe that SSJ2 Teen Gohan > SSJ2 Vegeta and the Majin transformation clearly gave Vegeta a big power up.

AS for your theories, like I said I disagree with all of them because the Majin powerup increases someone's power level depending on how evil they are. I suppose the closest option you gave was possibility 2. I've already explained why Goku would've been much stronger than Vegeta at this point.

@ohgodwhy said:

@axavierhansz: Yes, I'm a troll. Well done you got me.

First of all, Vegeta wouldn't have sacrificed himself for the Earth, clearly he doesn't care about humans because he just killed hundreds of them for no reason. The only reason why I think he sacrificed himself for was to save his son and his wife, who he does care about. That's two people.

How about the millions/billions of aliens that Vegeta killed throughout his entire life? Does one good act make up for the years of evil he committed? He's clearly got evil in his heart but he became a lot more tame after gaining a family and friends but like I and Piccolo stated, that wouldn't make up for a lifetime of evil.

So like I said, Vegeta is at his core evil, hence why he gained a massive power up as Majin Vegeta.

Then I suppose you can look at how much of a powerup that Spopovich got. I doubt that he in his entire life time killed even 0.001% of the people that Vegeta killed and Spopovich too received a massive power up.

I also posted a scan above which showed that Vegeta was impressed that Goku SS2 had surpassed SSJ2 Teen Gohan's PL, why would Vegeta be impressed by such a feat if he himself had also surpassed SSJ2 Teen Gohan's PL.

In conclusion, I believe that SSJ2 Teen Gohan > SSJ2 Vegeta and the Majin transformation clearly gave Vegeta a big power up.

AS for your theories, like I said I disagree with all of them because the Majin powerup increases someone's power level depending on how evil they are. I suppose the closest option you gave was possibility 2. I've already explained why Goku would've been much stronger than Vegeta at this point.

First of all: the at core evil point is DIRECTLY refuted by canon. When it was wished for all good people who died after Babidi came to earth would be revived, Vegeta was revived. Therefore Vegeta = good guy. During early DBZ, Vegeta actually hinted that he didn't want to kill innocents. He said that he didn't want to be ruthless but it was the only thing he knows due to Frieza. Being a ruthless killer by choice is evil. Being a ruthless killer because you were forced to fight since you were a child is not evil. After Frieza died, Vegeta has proven with his actions that given a choice, he fights on the side of good. How many people he has killed in the past is irrelevant. Past sins cannot be erased, but they do not determine a person's goodness or evilness. Otherwise, Piccolo, Tien are evil too.

Also, you said that Vegeta only sacrificed himself for his wife and son. Vegeta DIRECTLY STATED that he also did it for Goku ("and yes, even for you, Kakarot"). So your point is instantly disproved. Before that, we could hear Vegeta thinking to himself "I may be gone, but this planet will be safe" (in anime anyway). Again, disproving your point. Furthermore, when Vegeta was no longer Majin, he took extra care to make sure that the people he killed would be brought back to life when making the wish. Even Goku didn't think about doing that. If Vegeta didn't care about human life, why would he do that? 100 people is not going to make a difference to the Spirit bomb. If he doesn't care about human life, why would he bother?

Of course vegeta would be impressed that Goku had surpassed Gohan. Before seeing Goku's strength, Vegeta believed himself to be the strongest out of all of Earth's warriors. Vegeta saw Goku as a disgrace to Saiyans, or, at minimum, a low class warrior. If you were the prince of all Saiyans, would you not be impressed if a low class warrior matched the strength you were only able to achieve after 7 years of constant training? Or would you be like, meh, that low class warrior guy is exactly as strong as I am even after I have trained hard for 7 years, I'm not impressed. Which would it be?

I am not saying you are wrong, I am merely saying that Vegeta being impressed proves nothing. If Vegeta was the same as Goku's strength before the Majin charm, it would still be in-character for him to be impressed by Goku's strength. Vegeta's direct statements, thoughts, and actions, as well as the fact that he was reborned by a wish which only revives the good guys, all serve to prove that Vegeta's level of evil is extremely low. Therefore, if majin charm boosts strength based on level of evil, Vegeta would gain little strength.

Lastly, if you're saying that Vegeta gains a boost that is greater than Spopovich's in terms of a multiplier, you're basically saying that Vegeta got weaker after 7 years of training (re-read my previous posts to understand why). This is impossible.

@axavierhansz: You raise good points but at the end of the day, the facts are the facts.

1) The Majin curse only worked on Vegeta because there was evil in his heart.

2) Dabura noted that Vegeta had a lot of evil in his heart. As the demon king, I'm sure he's fairly adept at identifying evil.

3) Piccolo himself told Vegeta that regardless of any good he may have done, he was still going to hell (or a different plane, as were his direct words) because of all his past transgressions.

4) He didn't seem too bothered when he killed all the hundreds of people in the crowd, twice. Or when he killed all the innocent Namekians. Or when he blew up that planet with those weird aliens on it (Although that was anime filler I'll admit).

As Piccolo has stated, Vegeta's soul would be cleansed in the otherworld. This would explain why he was no longer Majin and why he was able to be revived as a good guy wouldn't it?

Now as for my point about Goku being far superior to Vegeta. I believe that still stands, he was well beyond Vegeta ever since the Frieza saga and that gap only got wider, not narrower. The fact of the matter is this, Vegeta simply could not hold a candle to Goku if it wasn't for the Majin transformation. For me, this is clear evidence that the Majin transformation increased his power significantly. Plus like I stated, Goku trained in the other world for 7 years. He received numerous benefits over that time that Vegeta did not such as training from the Kais, Limitless Ki (This was hinted when he said he couldn't hold his SSJ3 transformation on Earth for Long), Immortality because he was already dead (So he could receive massive Zenkai boosts). What did Vegeta have? Gravity training?

But yeah, Goku's always been well ahead of Vegeta, it's the whole reason Vegeta let himself fall under the transformation as was stated by Vegeta himself. He knew the only way he could hope to even compete with Goku SSJ2 was to accept the becoming Majin and effectively selling his soul.

Finally, I think that first scan I posted does show that Vegeta was indeed impressed that Goku had finally surpassed Gohan. For me, it's clear, it's in the text and I think you're overthinking it. Like you said, it's DBZ, there's no need to overthink things. SSJ2 Teen Gohan was really powerful, Vegeta noted when Dabura and Gohan fought that Gohan's power had fallen significantly since the battle with Cell.

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@niBBit: Exactly bro :) I'm on Opera as well @Supreme Marvel: Maybe that's why. On chrome it works just fine.

Yeah the anime really alters the situations to the point were it can sometimes be ridiculous. I agree with you 100% on this post :)

I don't get your pms most times either and I'm on chrome. Weird.

@axavierhansz: You raise good points but at the end of the day, the facts are the facts.

1) The Majin curse only worked on Vegeta because there was evil in his heart.

2) Dabura noted that Vegeta had a lot of evil in his heart. As the demon king, I'm sure he's fairly adept at identifying evil.

3) Piccolo himself told Vegeta that regardless of any good he may have done, he was still going to hell (or a different plane, as were his direct words) because of all his past transgressions.

4) He didn't seem too bothered when he killed all the hundreds of people in the crowd, twice. Or when he killed all the innocent Namekians. Or when he blew up that planet with those weird aliens on it (Although that was anime filler I'll admit).

As Piccolo has stated, Vegeta's soul would be cleansed in the otherworld. This would explain why he was no longer Majin and why he was able to be revived as a good guy wouldn't it?

Now as for my point about Goku being far superior to Vegeta. I believe that still stands, he was well beyond Vegeta ever since the Frieza saga and that gap only got wider, not narrower. The fact of the matter is this, Vegeta simply could not hold a candle to Goku if it wasn't for the Majin transformation. For me, this is clear evidence that the Majin transformation increased his power significantly. Plus like I stated, Goku trained in the other world for 7 years. He received numerous benefits over that time that Vegeta did not such as training from the Kais, Limitless Ki (This was hinted when he said he couldn't hold his SSJ3 transformation on Earth for Long), Immortality because he was already dead (So he could receive massive Zenkai boosts). What did Vegeta have? Gravity training?

But yeah, Goku's always been well ahead of Vegeta, it's the whole reason Vegeta let himself fall under the transformation as was stated by Vegeta himself. He knew the only way he could hope to even compete with Goku SSJ2 was to accept the becoming Majin and effectively selling his soul.

Finally, I think that first scan I posted does show that Vegeta was indeed impressed that Goku had finally surpassed Gohan. For me, it's clear, it's in the text and I think you're overthinking it. Like you said, it's DBZ, there's no need to overthink things. SSJ2 Teen Gohan was really powerful, Vegeta noted when Dabura and Gohan fought that Gohan's power had fallen significantly since the battle with Cell.

@ohgodwhy said:

Excellent points. Finally an intelligent debate.

First I would like to note that it's pretty easy for Dabura to SAY that there is a lot of evil in Vegeta's heart. That's all very well, but I think the consensus is that character statements are only acceptable proof if they are not contradicted by actual feats/events. In this case, the fact that Vegeta was revived by a wish reviving good people is an event directly contradicting Dabura's character statement. Unless I'm mistaken, in such cases we reject the character statement and accept the actual event as true.

Second of all, you said that Vegeta was cleansed. If we accept Piccolo's character statement as true, then Vegeta was NOT CLEANSED. Why? Because Piccolo himself stated that not only will Vegeta be cleansed, he would be given a new existence (i.e. reincarnation). If Vegeta had been cleansed successfully, please tell me why he was still dead? He should have been reincarnated already. Therefore it is evident that he was either unsuccessfully cleansed, there was nothing to cleanse, or that there wasn't enough time to cleanse him yet. Furthermore, not sure about the manga, but in the anime, when Vegeta was about to be sent back to Earth by Yemma, his first words were :"So, the mighty King Yemma comes grovelling to me". Does that sound like someone who's been cleansed to you? What is more, after being revived, Vegeta was furious at Goku, and refused to co-operate with Goku to fight Buu until after Goku used a lot of persuasion and Buu almost killing them both. Again, doesn't seem very cleansed, does it? The result of cleansing has already been shown in dbz: Uub. Successful cleansing actually makes the person nice. Vegeta remains selfish and mean, showing that he was not cleansed. You might be saying, well doesn't that prove he's evil? No. Selfish, mean, and evil are NOT the same thing. Selfish, mean Vegeta would act like that without needing to be evil. Cleansed vegeta would not.

I'm not overthinking it. It's just that if Vegeta indeed received a massive boost through the majin spell, this would contradict many parts of dragonball z, while if he received only a small boost it would contradict none. As many have stated, a 5% overall power difference (i.e. speed and poewr level and ki) can mean the difference between a draw and a decisive win. A small boost like that would be consistent with the storyline: the charm increases Vegeta's strength negligibly but tapping into his rage and fury allows him to power up more effectively (saiyan transformations have been stated many times to be emotion based), but the charm itself doesn't increase Vegeta's strength. It is also possible that Vegeta can't transform into the super saiyan 2 form without the majin charm, as, again, saiyan transformations are emotion based, so he needed to unlock his hatred to gain access to ssj2. This last point is especially likely since

a) this explains why Vegeta needs majin charm

b) this explains why Vegeta was impressed with Goku, since he required majin charm to go ssj2

c) this does not require a high level of evil in Vegeta to work

d) since this doesn't require a high level of evil in Vegeta, the underworld cleansing paradox wouldn't happen (to reiterate, vegeta cleansed = vegeta reincarnated. vegeta not cleansed = vegeta can't be reborn, assuming vegeta is evil)

e) since Vegeta doesn't need to be highly evil any more, it explains how he was able to be revived by a wish reviving only good guys

f) it wouldn't suggest that Vegeta's strength stayed roughly the same after 7 years of hardcore training

g) it would explain why Goten and Trunks never achieved ssj2: they never had the emotional upheaval or training in afterlife with infinite ki or magically unlocked anger needed to gain ssj2. after all, it was clear that goten and trunks had massive potential, seeing how they both achieved ssj far earlier than even Gohan.

Summary: majin spell giving Vegeta access to ssj2 is consistent with everything in the storyline, including the scans you posted. majin spell giving vegeta a massive power boost has a very large number of inconsistencies which I have pointed out. it just doesn't add up.

in which case ssj2 vegeta still stomps cell+gohan since it assumes he has the ssj2 form already.

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@Supreme Marvel: If I make it bloodlust would that stop Vegeta from being retarded?

@MarioRedfield said:

@SpeedForceSpider: Yeah, that works then. I don't know how Good Buu would compare to Cell though so this is where I end my argument. DBZ comparisons confuse me

I see Good Buu as Mid-Upper SSJ2 level. I'd say Majin Vegeta is around Good Buu level.

A Bloodlusted Vegeta would actually be more Inclined to allow it to happen since his HOLYSHITWTFBBQPRIDE!!11! meter would be off the charts.