Battles

@SMXLR8: I figured that much ¬_¬ I was going to start a private conversation, but we may as well do it here.

You may have heard this argument before, but I believe it is the best example of DBZ characters being FTL, and that is the incident with Piccolo blowing up the moon. Without having to charge up, Piccolo fired off a beam that reached the moon in the space of a few seconds.

Now the usual response to this would be "but that was anime only, we don't know how long it took to reach the moon in the manga."

I don't mean to insult your intelligence with this or anything, but just to remind ourselves of the ground facts.

The speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s. The distance between the moon and the earth is generally held to be 384,400km (384,400,000m).

Now let's consider the scans to refresh our memory:

We notice that Piccolo is in the exact same position when he fires the blast and when the moon is gone. This strongly suggests that very little time has passed at all. What reinforces this case is that Gohan (as an Oozaru) was firing off energy blasts everywhere. It is therefore ludicrous, having noted these points, to say that the beam could have taken much time at all to reach the moon. Piccolo could not have remained stationary whilst in danger of getting hit by an oozaru blast, nor would he have just sat there in the exact same pose.

So, getting to the numbers, being harsh on DBZ, let's say no more than 10 seconds could have passed (IMO it would have been less, more like 5, but I'll be lenient).

384,400,000m/10s gives a speed of 38,440,000m/s. That means Piccolo's blast was moving at over an eighth the speed of light if we go by this, putting it firmly in relativistic territory. This was a Piccolo with a PL of less than 500.

Nappa was outmaching a stronger, faster Piccolo. Nappa was pretty much blitzed by Goku's kaio-ken x 2, yet Vegeta was easily able to keep up with it. Burter was faster than an even stronger Vegeta, yet was totally outmatched by Goku with a PL of 90,000. By the time we get to Freiza's death beam in his final form it would be reasonable to say that they are FTL.

Let me know your thoughts on this.

@ReiKai said:

Small notation. Shortest distance of Earth/Moon (and I go by shortest to be fair) equates to 226,000mi roughly. Piccolo's beam struck in roughly 4sec and I estimated the speed which comes to around a third the speed of light. Currently those of the Death Battle team seek to calculate Goku's speed based off the time he was on Snake Way and multiply it by his grav training and SSJ transformations (or at least that's part of the process they were going with in their Behind the Scenes vid). However, I've said there as I've said here; Their Travel Speed is far less than their Combat/Reaction speed. If I went by Travel Speed, Goku was little over 1/2 lightspeed when he first went SSJ. Even if you kept Goku at that level, increase boon with SSJ forms and he's low FTL as SS2 and maybe 4-5xFTL as a SS3 in terms of Travel Speed.

Agreed, and I've noticed that you've had to state time and time again that fighting/reaction speed is not the same as travel speed.

Using your calculation and my own, we could say that the blast was somewhere between an eighth to a third of light speed. Either way, it makes decent DBZ characters (lower-level Freiza) FTL, and the top ones (from Buu saga) likely many times FTL.

Gogeta nor anyone in DBZ are not FTL unless you include IT (Teleportation by the way)

Hell, A Gold Saint like Gemini Saga would be a more suitable match for the likes of Asura.

There is nothing that indicates they're FTL, maybe relativistic but not remotely close to FTL or Light Speed.

If that was the case, Vegeta and Nappa wouldn't have used drones to transport them to Earth,

Just nothing that indicates them to being FTL.

And there's been only one attack in the entire series that I characterized as being FTL and that attack was Vegeta's Final Flash.

Also movies would be considered Non-Canon so the super kamehameha wouldn't count

@SMXLR8 said:

@GIRUGAMESH: interesting but that does not prove that their FTL I mean sure busting the moon is cool but that never once showed or hinted that they were ftl

Read the argument again, it shows that the blast was relativistic. It follows that if, say Raditz, dodged such a blast, he has relativistic reaction speeds (at least). Likewise, if Nappa dodges a blast from an even faster, stronger Piccolo, then it follows that Nappa's reaction speeds are greater than the speed of the blast, and so on. Of course it's hinted, logic and powerscaling strongly suggest that they are FTL.

@SMXLR8 said:

@GIRUGAMESH: i meant they not that

It makes no difference at all as far as the argument goes.

@5th said:

Gogeta nor anyone in DBZ are not FTL unless you include IT (Teleportation by the way)

Hell, A Gold Saint like Gemini Saga would be a more suitable match for the likes of Asura.

There is nothing that indicates they're FTL, maybe relativistic but not remotely close to FTL or Light Speed.

If that was the case, Vegeta and Nappa wouldn't have used drones to transport them to Earth,

Just nothing that indicates them to being FTL.

And there's been only one attack in the entire series that I characterized as being FTL and that attack was Vegeta's Final Flash.

Also movies would be considered Non-Canon so the super kamehameha wouldn't count

Read my earlier post.

As myself and Reikai have shown, there is much to suggest that they are FTL.

"If that was the case, Vegeta and Nappa wouldn't have used drones to transport them to Earth". As stated previously, travel speed is not the same as combat/attack/reaction speed, your argument is moot. I also stated that at that stage, they would not have been FTL, not until later on. Thirdly, have you considered that they might not have the stamina to fly for that long? It took them a whole year in advanced spacecrafts to get to earth. The pods were by far an easier option, think before you post.

Powerscaling and reason disagree with you, and even if you only include Vegeta's final flash then you still admit that higher-tier DBZ characters are FTL (or are you going to say something stupid, like Kid Buu not being FTL because he never showed it?).

@UltimateHero0406: Interesting, I'll take a look, was that at the 2nd martial art tournament?

@SMXLR8: Ok fair enough, still my points still stand.

@DBZ_universe said:

Goku is FTL thanks to Shunkan Ido same with Supreme Kaioshin with his Instant Movement which>>>>Shunkan Ido... with IM Supreme Kaioshin can travel anywhere in he universe in less than a second... I am pretty sure that is massively FTL since he can travel from one side of the Universe to another instantly same with Shunkan Ido.

I'd say that was teleportation. I mean, how does he go from one realm to another by travelling? That's impossible. I can't reach heaven by getting in a space ship and flying there.

@DBZ_universe: You said it first time, non-canon.