Dark Shneider vs Shuma Gorath

Topic started by Saladking on Dec. 17, 2013. Last post by 321zigzag1 9 months ago.
Post by Low (1,372 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@321zigzag1 said:

@taichokage said:

Good debate guys. I'm not certain myself. I wish I knew more about Shuma. Sometimes wiki checking isn't enough. It essentially comes down to one point, which is stronger the unstoppable force (Shuma's energy eating) or the immovable object (Dispel Bound)?

Both are relative. "unstoppable" "immovable" are relative terms.

Heck I will use Math as an example.

In Math there are infinites but they aren't the same size in concept.

Prime Number infinite vs. Positive Numbers infinite? THe latter is more in quantity despite being both infinite.

The point is though Shuma Gorath at his best always operated on a much higher scale. Problem is that he has few appearances.

@Low

said:

@321zigzag1: Disregarding everything else, considering that he is multiversal+, am I to simply assume DS has no dominion over Shuma? Certainly you don't believe that when a stronger than Darsh wizard (though by behavior both DS and strange dwell in the same level of magic) beats on Shuma,

All you have is Dispel Bound.

What exactly do I have a reason to believe DS can do better than what Death the concept herself did in Cancerverse?

What exactly do I have a reason to believe DS can do better than what Sise Neg can do?

@Low said:

@321zigzag1: DS would not be capable of doing the same thing? Even Strange was taking dominion over foreign powers and beings in his path to supremecy, the exact same thing DS has done.

You are arguing more on concepts than just more on feats. Be more specific in what you are saying on what DS did. You say DS did what STrange did.

Show me. Surely it wouldn't be too difficult?

Just because they both did something similar doesn't automatically translate they are on the same level.

For example Avatar State Aang and Rikudo Sennin are conceptually similar. Yet by feats they are clearly not.

You seem to be going on a tangent DS being a magic user automatically grants STrange feats to him. Except feats are the most important.

All you argued was Dispel Bound and you first initially claimed it was invincible but then you admitted they can be broken. It's all relative.

Here I will start things off then.

Classic Strange fluctuates. Normally he would be weaker than DS by a strong margin but at his best he operates universal to beyond. For example he can be an avatar for Eternity. His power fluctuation also depends on his conjuring power.

Normally Shuma Gorath's showings on earth are pitiful to his real self in his actual dimension with the exception of Sise Neg. But I am assuming Shuma Gorath is at his best the neutral dimension can allow.

@Low said:

@321zigzag1: If I'm to simply accept based on nothing, I guess I should quit? lol. iight. I see how it is.

You never bothered to even counter Death example or Sise Neg example yet you call it nothing.

For what purpose?

Who told you it was nothing?

Dispel Bound is not everything I have as an argument. You might not have been listening, but didn't I say DS broke the fabric of reality? Aka big bang level explosion required behind it. Anyway, I quit because you don't appear to want to continue debating, simply due to Shuma being the superior entity, and I have no claim against that.

Here's Lucifer explaining how much power it would require to break the reality between dimensions, which was what they were trying to do to break DS out. However, in the fight, DS dealt and tanked such realive force, easily explaining. Like I said before, if I am to simply accept nothing can be done against Shuma, then there is little use in trying to debate. The argument that Dispel Bound is invincible, as you put it, has more to do with the fact DS can keep it going for eternity given if Shuma is not able to attack as many times. DS's speed is so great, he was able to go towards infinity to break Uriel's Dispel Bound, emerging out as superior.

Here's DS dealing and taking reality busting attacks.

This feat, according to Lucifer, requires energy relative to the creation of the universe - Big Bang. Thats all I have to say here, really. Current DS, the one fighting Porno Diano, is even stronger. Hes putting out Galaxy busting+ attacks in a restricted state. If you want to debate on, I have said DS is not a mere galaxy buster. He casually destroys Galaxies.

Post by CrosswindVortex (146 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Low it's already been confirmed that Shuma has universal level durability and Shuma eats energy on the same level as Sis (again Sis is universal). The source of everything that Darsh does requires energy/magic and all of Darsh's greatest feats involved the use of magic/energy, so he's pretty much boned here.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@Low said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Dispel Bound is not everything I have as an argument. You might not have been listening, but didn't I say DS broke the fabric of reality? Aka big bang level explosion required behind it. Anyway, I quit because you don't appear to want to continue debating, simply due to Shuma being the superior entity, and I have no claim against that.

Should I ask that question on reality back to you? Fabric of reality is not just one. Generally it is thought encompassing the universe. Sise Neg, Death, or Strange cannot break break fabric of reality now? Plus you don't need to be universal to break reality.

To be honest though, Shuma Gorath in a different dimension is really matter of speculation in terms of how powerful he may be. He can be very weak to being pretty powerful.

"You don't appear to want to continue debating."

Not sure where you got that from, I was not trying to imply as such. I have forgotten much on DS anyway. It's nice to refresh yourself.

@Low said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Here's Lucifer explaining how much power it would require to break the reality between dimensions, which was what they were trying to do to break DS out. However, in the fight, DS dealt and tanked such realive force, easily explaining. Like I said before, if I am to simply accept nothing can be done against Shuma, then there is little use in trying to debate. The argument that Dispel Bound is invincible, as you put it, has more to do with the fact DS can keep it going for eternity given if Shuma is not able to attack as many times. DS's speed is so great, he was able to go towards infinity to break Uriel's Dispel Bound, emerging out as superior.

Here's DS dealing and taking reality busting attacks.

This feat, according to Lucifer, requires energy relative to the creation of the universe - Big Bang. Thats all I have to say here, really. Current DS, the one fighting Porno Diano, is even stronger. Hes putting out Galaxy busting+ attacks in a restricted state. If you want to debate on, I have said DS is not a mere galaxy buster. He casually destroys Galaxies.

Then what would you argue on DS at his full power?

"The argument that Dispel Bound is invincible, as you put it, has more to do with the fact DS can keep it going for eternity given if Shuma is not able to attack as many times. DS's speed is so great, he was able to go towards infinity"

Well I hate to break it to you but that's relative too.

Your argument hinges on that Shuma Gorath's volume of attack isn't greater than DS's output or speed of his attack or both or etc.

I will say this though, this is partly up to conjecture because Shuma Gorath isn't the same in all lesser realms in power.

Because infinite is relative itself. Contradictory it sounds like but true. Math is a good example.

I will say this if Dispel Bound succeeds then that is that I suppose.

Post by Low (1,372 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@CrosswindVortex said:

Low it's already been confirmed that Shuma has universal level durability and Shuma eats energy on the same level as Sis (again Sis is universal). The source of everything that Darsh does requires energy/magic and all of Darsh's greatest feats involved the use of magic/energy, so he's pretty much boned here.

Yes its the very fabric of the universe itself DS shattered. Do you have an instance of feat where Shuma has taken on such force? Of course you can argue that possessing the power of a universe or two exceeds the damage quota (would), such as with the guys at peak that you mentioned. But thats still no way to prove Shuma can take on that kind of punishment. It doesn't anyway.

@321zigzag1:

Should I ask that question on reality back to you? Fabric of reality is not just one. Generally it is thought encompassing the universe. Sise Neg, Death, or Strange cannot break break fabric of reality now? Plus you don't need to be universal to break reality.
To be honest though, Shuma Gorath in a different dimension is really matter of speculation in terms of how powerful he may be. He can be very weak to being pretty powerful.

Dark Schneiders biggest issue would be his limited range. His actual range appears to be limited but his spells are already on a multiversal proportion, capable of BFRing opponents across dimension and spells that destroy targets on an atomic, spiritual and astral level. Heck, Dark Schneider has recreated from memory an angel that he had destroyed in his Majin form. So certainly DS does not lack when it comes to creation feats as well (something which according to the serpahs is only something God could do).

As far as going infinity is concerned, Uriel and DS were dealing infinite blows at one point at the end of which DS shattered his Dispel Bound. Basically, theres a lot of things DS can do against Shuma here. So long as Dispel Bound holds, theres no way Shumas immortality is holding up, and beating up on that level of durability (universal accoding to you), not when DS can destroy your very being.

Post by Saladking (916 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@Low said:

@CrosswindVortex said:

Low it's already been confirmed that Shuma has universal level durability and Shuma eats energy on the same level as Sis (again Sis is universal). The source of everything that Darsh does requires energy/magic and all of Darsh's greatest feats involved the use of magic/energy, so he's pretty much boned here.

Yes its the very fabric of the universe itself DS shattered. Do you have an instance of feat where Shuma has taken on such force? Of course you can argue that possessing the power of a universe or two exceeds the damage quota (would), such as with the guys at peak that you mentioned. But thats still no way to prove Shuma can take on that kind of punishment. It doesn't anyway.

@321zigzag1:

Should I ask that question on reality back to you? Fabric of reality is not just one. Generally it is thought encompassing the universe. Sise Neg, Death, or Strange cannot break break fabric of reality now? Plus you don't need to be universal to break reality.
To be honest though, Shuma Gorath in a different dimension is really matter of speculation in terms of how powerful he may be. He can be very weak to being pretty powerful.

Dark Schneiders biggest issue would be his limited range. His actual range appears to be limited but his spells are already on a multiversal proportion, capable of BFRing opponents across dimension and spells that destroy targets on an atomic, spiritual and astral level. Heck, Dark Schneider has recreated from memory an angel that he had destroyed in his Majin form. So certainly DS does not lack when it comes to creation feats as well (something which according to the serpahs is only something God could do).

As far as going infinity is concerned, Uriel and DS were dealing infinite blows at one point at the end of which DS shattered his Dispel Bound. Basically, theres a lot of things DS can do against Shuma here. So long as Dispel Bound holds, theres no way Shumas immortality is holding up, and beating up on that level of durability (universal accoding to you), not when DS can destroy your very being.

I posted a scan showing that Shuma indeed has universal durability. If destroying Shuma's being was that simple then Sis would have done it but he couldn't. He did destroy and recreate the universe so destroying someone's existence should have been child's play to him but he couldn't.

You have yet to explain to us how DS avoids getting his energy eaten from someone who feeds off of universal level energy. Darsh isn't universal so his energy will be a quick snack to Shuma and going by your logic DS can solo anything that doesn't have spell disbound which can't be proven. Spell disbound cancels spells, Shuma absorbing energy isn't a spell.

If DS attempts to fight him he will get his energy absorbed and he will be useless while Shuma grows even more powerful.

Post by Low (1,372 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@Saladking: Didn't I already explain that? Dispel Bound negates reality bendinng, blocks powers, that means any power whatever it is not getting near DS without shuma taking the effort to break the shield. Shuma can keep reparing it to the infinity, as he has displayed against Uriel. Shuma is not leaching DS's energy from the get go. Even assuming this eating process is eating up the shield, DS keeps it up to the infinity. And, Dispel Bound isn't just defensive, its offensive as well. DS negates immortality, durability if you want to call it that. DS already has multiple attacks, like hellish soul to feed off of Shumas energy and his very essense, and attacks your very atomic/astral/soul self to totally obliterate your very existence.

Post by Saladking (916 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Again Shuma eating energy isn't a spell or reality bending. Its just him feeding.

Prove to everyone here with scans that Darsh can do what Sis couldn't because he never fought anyone as powerful as either. A guy who could erase universes couldn't erase Shuma so how is DS going to do that? Darsh isn't even universal, he is weaker than Sis.

Show us a scan of Darsh going lol nope to a universal being

If DS feeds off his energy then he will turn into Shuma

Like Sis said, Shuma absorbs power on the same level as him (universal). All of Darsh abilities require energy/power/magic and Shuma eats that on a universal level and Darsh isn't even on that level.

There is a power gap between these two that you're ignoring

Just for lols Shuma can make a voodoo doll out of Darsh and hold the hands together so he can't even cast magic

Post by Low (1,372 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@Saladking said:

Again Shuma eating energy isn't a spell or reality bending. Its just him feeding.

Prove to everyone here with scans that Darsh can do what Sis couldn't because he never fought anyone as powerful as either. A guy who could erase universes couldn't erase Shuma so how is DS going to do that? Darsh isn't even universal, he is weaker than Sis.

Show us a scan of Darsh going lol nope to a universal being

If DS feeds off his energy then he will turn into Shuma

Like Sis said, Shuma absorbs power on the same level as him (universal). All of Darsh abilities require energy/power/magic and Shuma eats that on a universal level and Darsh isn't even on that level.

There is a power gap between these two that you're ignoring

Just for lols Shuma can make a voodoo doll out of Darsh and hold the hands together so he can't even cast magic

I will give you evidence of Dash's infinite magic potential now. These are series of 4 scans where Porno Diane explains the source of Darsh's magal power. Its an infinite source. This backed by Shuma's non existing feats, and I've already proven DS's universe breaking strength, there is no way he is not at least harming Shuma here.

And, DS is not feeding off of Shuma's energy, the souls he summon from hell are.

I said way before in this thread, I have no grounds to go on if the level of arguments simply base on the fact that Shuma is multiversal grants him an absolute victory. I don't know who Sis is, his attacks are, what relativity does he hold. If he is simply a juicy steak for Shuma, I don't blame him in this case. However if you only want to put that on me and if that somehow leads to Shuma winning, there is nothing I can say to best that. I've already shown DS's multiversal status. He created a cosmic being, on star level (take Silver Surfer) just from memories. I'm sorry but I refuse to go down against hype. And a whole lot of nothing around Shuma.

He might be a great and powerful being, but againt his almost no feats, DS wins. Not to sound unrelenting or anything, when has Shuma ever fought against Hax capable of denying his power? Even then I said he would probably win in his own domain.

Post by Saladking (916 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@Low said:

@Saladking said:

Again Shuma eating energy isn't a spell or reality bending. Its just him feeding.

Prove to everyone here with scans that Darsh can do what Sis couldn't because he never fought anyone as powerful as either. A guy who could erase universes couldn't erase Shuma so how is DS going to do that? Darsh isn't even universal, he is weaker than Sis.

Show us a scan of Darsh going lol nope to a universal being

If DS feeds off his energy then he will turn into Shuma

Like Sis said, Shuma absorbs power on the same level as him (universal). All of Darsh abilities require energy/power/magic and Shuma eats that on a universal level and Darsh isn't even on that level.

There is a power gap between these two that you're ignoring

Just for lols Shuma can make a voodoo doll out of Darsh and hold the hands together so he can't even cast magic

I will give you evidence of Dash's infinite magic potential now. These are series of 4 scans where Porno Diane explains the source of Darsh's magal power. Its an infinite source. This backed by Shuma's non existing feats, and I've already proven DS's universe breaking strength, there is no way he is not at least harming Shuma here.

And, DS is not feeding off of Shuma's energy, the souls he summon from hell are.

I said way before in this thread, I have no grounds to go on if the level of arguments simply base on the fact that Shuma is multiversal grants him an absolute victory. I don't know who Sis is, his attacks are, what relativity does he hold. If he is simply a juicy steak for Shuma, I don't blame him in this case. However if you only want to put that on me and if that somehow leads to Shuma winning, there is nothing I can say to best that. I've already shown DS's multiversal status. He created a cosmic being, on star level (take Silver Surfer) just from memories. I'm sorry but I refuse to go down against hype. And a whole lot of nothing around Shuma.

He might be a great and powerful being, but againt his almost no feats, DS wins. Not to sound unrelenting or anything, when has Shuma ever fought against Hax capable of denying his power? Even then I said he would probably win in his own domain.

The souls will all manifest into Shuma. Anything that feeds on chaos energy will turn into Shuma.

Erasing a universe is the ultimate hax. When you erase a universe you're erasing everything within it and Strange even said Sis could kill him with just a thought and this man who has such power was unable to erase Shuma. The best he could do was to put Shuma back to sleep or Shuma would have absorbed his powers and Shuma would have became even more powerful

Darsh's magic is massively inferior to Sis so what makes you think Darsh can do what he couldn't? There's a huge power gap that people in this thread are trying to explain to you that you refuse to accept

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@Low said:

@321zigzag1:

Should I ask that question on reality back to you? Fabric of reality is not just one. Generally it is thought encompassing the universe. Sise Neg, Death, or Strange cannot break break fabric of reality now? Plus you don't need to be universal to break reality.
To be honest though, Shuma Gorath in a different dimension is really matter of speculation in terms of how powerful he may be. He can be very weak to being pretty powerful.

Dark Schneiders biggest issue would be his limited range. His actual range appears to be limited but his spells are already on a multiversal proportion, capable of BFRing opponents across dimension and spells that destroy targets on an atomic, spiritual and astral level. Heck, Dark Schneider has recreated from memory an angel that he had destroyed in his Majin form. So certainly DS does not lack when it comes to creation feats as well (something which according to the serpahs is only something God could do).

As far as going infinity is concerned, Uriel and DS were dealing infinite blows at one point at the end of which DS shattered his Dispel Bound. Basically, theres a lot of things DS can do against Shuma here. So long as Dispel Bound holds, theres no way Shumas immortality is holding up, and beating up on that level of durability (universal accoding to you), not when DS can destroy your very being.

It is true he has BFR properties. And Shuma Gorath's main source of defeat as been banishment to another dimension.

According to me Shuma is universal? No I am saying that for Sise Neg. Then again some comic fans will say he is higher than that. Everything he did was better than DS.

He was going back in time collecting all the magical energies into himself. He succeeded into becoming God and rewriting 616 reality in the end.

In fact Shuma Gorath has enslaved hundreds of realms and dimensions by statement. In the classic marvel days dimension was synonymous to universe.

There are fans who say SHuma Gorath is multiversal or even Dormammu at his height is multiversal so but that is debatable. The former isn't that as much contested.

You do realize this fight isn't just Dispel Bound vs. SHuma Gorath's immortality? A Fight involves much more than that.

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