Dark Shneider vs Shuma Gorath

Topic started by Saladking on Dec. 17, 2013. Last post by 321zigzag1 9 months, 1 week ago.
Post by Low (1,379 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@CrosswindVortex: Maybe you did not read. Dash negates immortality using Dispel bound. If you say he has universal durability, that just means an attack that has broken the dimensional barrier would be able to harm Shuma. Do you know exactly how fast Shuma is? Can Shuma even percieve DS? I don't think he can. DS has deerfenses that says otherwise. It won't be possible for Shuma to eat him. Creating universes are feats by themselves. But that tells us nothing if such level of power fails against Shuma. DS has broken the fabric of reality and Dispel Bound cannot be broken by magic, reality warping or any other force. Only a Dispel Bound can cancel dispel bound. I've not seen anything that says Shuma is harming DS here, no speed feats, no durability feats. No strength feat that would otherwise say Shuma has what it takes to harm DS.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@Low said:

@CrosswindVortex: Dash negates immortality using Dispel bound.

Dispel Bound cannot be broken by magic, reality warping or any other force.

These statements are technically relative to the power level of the user.

@Low said:

@CrosswindVortex: Only a Dispel Bound can cancel dispel bound.

Just like "Only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha"

It's relative within multiversal context.

Post by Low (1,379 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@321zigzag1 said:

@Low said:

@CrosswindVortex: Dash negates immortality using Dispel bound.

Dispel Bound cannot be broken by magic, reality warping or any other force.

These statements are technically relative to the power level of the user.

@Low said:

@CrosswindVortex: Only a Dispel Bound can cancel dispel bound.

Just like "Only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha"

It's relative within multiversal context.

Whats the point of your argument though? Unless Shuma proves he has adequate means to go through absolute defenses of this level, if you consider the concepts of the beings in question that DS has faced, Dispel Bound is holding up. Shuma has sort of lost to magical beings before.

Post by Saladking (968 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@Low said:

@CrosswindVortex: Maybe you did not read. Dash negates immortality using Dispel bound. If you say he has universal durability, that just means an attack that has broken the dimensional barrier would be able to harm Shuma. Do you know exactly how fast Shuma is? Can Shuma even percieve DS? I don't think he can. DS has deerfenses that says otherwise. It won't be possible for Shuma to eat him. Creating universes are feats by themselves. But that tells us nothing if such level of power fails against Shuma. DS has broken the fabric of reality and Dispel Bound cannot be broken by magic, reality warping or any other force. Only a Dispel Bound can cancel dispel bound. I've not seen anything that says Shuma is harming DS here, no speed feats, no durability feats. No strength feat that would otherwise say Shuma has what it takes to harm DS.

Shuma sits there and absorbs Darsh's energy leaving him powerless. I don't see why that's so hard to understand. Darsh can't use any fancy magic without energy.

Shuma: Dispel bound?

*nomnomnom*

No durability feats? You just comfirmed that you didn't read the scans in this thread because Shuma has universal durability

Speed feats? Shuma solos by sitting in one area, he's nigh omnipotent who's magic can effect people no matter what other dimension they're in.

Strength feats? He's a nigh omnipotent being who's older than the universe and has magic greater than the likes of Dormammu. What is this a DBZ or HST thread?

Oh so I guess being able to eat the energy from a universal being isn't a good enough feat.

Everything in Darsh's arsenal is a snack to Shuma. There's a reason why Sis was scared to fight him.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@Low said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Whats the point of your argument though?

Take in mind that arguments work both ways.

You claimed that dispel bound is invincible and can't be broken by anything whatsoever, even in the multiversal multiple fictional context, which is something that is impossible to prove in any means.

@Low said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Unless Shuma proves he has adequate means to go through absolute defenses of this level, if you consider the concepts of the beings in question that DS has faced, Dispel Bound is holding up. Shuma has sort of lost to magical beings before.

Are there any beings comparable to Shuma Gorath in Bastard?

@Low

said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Shuma has sort of lost to magical beings before.

The list is very short, and nearly all of them were due to plot or sealing and some of them were by Dr. Strange sorcerer supreme.

For example Conan the Barbarian situation or nearly any Shuma Gorath appearance which are very few.

The strongest example is likely when 616 version of Death killed the entire Cancerverse including the 4 angular ones, one of them was Shuma Gorath. But even if he didn't die there.

Post by Low (1,379 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@Saladking:

Okay, heres the deal. A sorcerer like DS managed to beat Shuma, someone with magic that Shuma is eating. Dispel Bound already blocks such trival attempts as eating energy.

@321zigzag1: Oh dispel bound can be broken alright. But, DS was constantly repairing any damage done to it (as they are literally various manners of shields) in a millionth of a second. Some of the shields outright ban certain aspects like power while there are blocks and stuff like that. Shuma is breaking them, but if he is not able to overpower DS's speed of reforming, eventually, DS will just win. He's survived an FTL battle with another Dispel Bound user, countering and repairing at the same time, this was likely slower than his actual speed which would be against Shuma as in this case, he does not have to deal with another Dispel Bound.

Post by Zerogodlike (1,225 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@Low said:

@Saladking:

Okay, heres the deal. A sorcerer like DS managed to beat Shuma, someone with magic that Shuma is eating. Dispel Bound already blocks such trival attempts as eating energy.

@321zigzag1: Oh dispel bound can be broken alright. But, DS was constantly repairing any damage done to it (as they are literally various manners of shields) in a millionth of a second. Some of the shields outright ban certain aspects like power while there are blocks and stuff like that. Shuma is breaking them, but if he is not able to overpower DS's speed of reforming, eventually, DS will just win. He's survived an FTL battle with another Dispel Bound user, countering and repairing at the same time, this was likely slower than his actual speed which would be against Shuma as in this case, he does not have to deal with another Dispel Bound.

Umm Darsh is not universal which means he loses your ignoring facts and using NLF are you saying that dispel bound could block a attack from LT.

Post by Low (1,379 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@Zerogodlike: Not really. As far as I know, Shuma is not omnipotent, nor does he have power thats backed by an omnipotent, such as the god of destruction DS is about to fight up. I will get back to you on this later.

Post by Saladking (968 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@Low said:

@Zerogodlike: Not really. As far as I know, Shuma is not omnipotent, nor does he have power thats backed by an omnipotent, such as the god of destruction DS is about to fight up. I will get back to you on this later.

Of course Shuma isn't omnipotent and being able to drain energy(energy that was used to recreate the universe) from universal beings is a huge feat. Everything Darsh does is magic, it's simple math.

Post by Zerogodlike (1,225 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@Low said:

@Zerogodlike: Not really. As far as I know, Shuma is not omnipotent, nor does he have power thats backed by an omnipotent, such as the god of destruction DS is about to fight up. I will get back to you on this later.

lol your not omnipotent by being Universal. Also shuma eats magic you do the math and i Pretty sure shuma could blow through all of his shields at once due to fact he way surpasses him in power.

Post by Low (1,379 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@Saladking said:

@Low said:

@Zerogodlike: Not really. As far as I know, Shuma is not omnipotent, nor does he have power thats backed by an omnipotent, such as the god of destruction DS is about to fight up. I will get back to you on this later.

Of course Shuma isn't omnipotent and being able to drain energy(energy that was used to recreate the universe) from universal beings is a huge feat. Everything Darsh does is magic, it's simple math.

Not really no. Darsh summoned up enough power he summoned with the shard (forgot name of it lol) in his sealed state against Porno Diano. I had to erase bits of an image that I uploaded.

The whole fight contains so much nudity, I won't bother post scans of it, but Im sure you've heard rumors about how DS molested a cosmic being. Porno Diane is one of Satans Generals he is facing. Satan: the guy whose mere presense can bust galaxies. The manga has stopped there, but basically he summoned enough power in a magic deprieved state as he had did with the jewel, the one with enough power to break reality.

Post by takashichea (12,669 posts) See mini bio Level 25
Moderator

@Low:

Your manga scans must be clean. No watermarks from pirated sites. I clean it for you, but in the future, please clean your manga scans. Thank you.

On-topic:

I can't really say anything since I'm not familiar with these 2 combatants.

Post by CrosswindVortex (146 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@Low said:

@Saladking said:

@Low said:

@Zerogodlike: Not really. As far as I know, Shuma is not omnipotent, nor does he have power thats backed by an omnipotent, such as the god of destruction DS is about to fight up. I will get back to you on this later.

Of course Shuma isn't omnipotent and being able to drain energy(energy that was used to recreate the universe) from universal beings is a huge feat. Everything Darsh does is magic, it's simple math.

Not really no. Darsh summoned up enough power he summoned with the shard (forgot name of it lol) in his sealed state against Porno Diano. I had to erase bits of an image that I uploaded.

The whole fight contains so much nudity, I won't bother post scans of it, but Im sure you've heard rumors about how DS molested a cosmic being. Porno Diane is one of Satans Generals he is facing. Satan: the guy whose mere presense can bust galaxies. The manga has stopped there, but basically he summoned enough power in a magic deprieved state as he had did with the jewel, the one with enough power to break reality.

It doesn't matter how much power Darsh can summon up. The more power he summons the more he feeds Shuma and Shuma will just add his power to his own. How is galaxy busting relevant in this thread when this guy can't even be killed by universal beings? Also, I appreciate you for debating on Darsh's side or it would be boring if no one did.

Post by Low (1,379 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@CrosswindVortex: Galaxy busting is something Darsh can do casually. So really, I'm not that worried here. You guys are just underestimating Dark Schneider. He has given and taken reality breaking attacks (the reality between dimensions/universes). That means, DS is capable of busting up holes in the fabric of universes. He has tanked the said attacks on himself. And the millions of blows Uriel and DS spent between themselves tell us about the vast magical and otherwise power potential DS possesses. Shuma cannot simply drain him dry. He still has to bypass Dispel Bound, and DS is capable of reconstructing Dispel Bound shields to the millionth of a second. Shumas actual speed is going to determine if he survives this contest against DS.

Because if Shuma cannot go faster than DS, it has no way of winning here. Dispel Bound will make sure of that. The level of beings doesn't matter here anyway. DS has means of cancelling Shumas immortality and his powers altogether. As far as Satan goes, busting a galaxy was a low end feat for him. At the high end of it, hes a universal being (so after DS stole Satans body, in a sense, he was already a universal level being). Even Satan himself exclaimed DS to be dangerous. A universal being deemed DS dangerous, that tells us something here.

Post by CrosswindVortex (146 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@Low said:

@CrosswindVortex: Galaxy busting is something Darsh can do casually. So really, I'm not that worried here. You guys are just underestimating Dark Schneider. He has given and taken reality breaking attacks (the reality between dimensions/universes). That means, DS is capable of busting up holes in the fabric of universes. He has tanked the said attacks on himself. And the millions of blows Uriel and DS spent between themselves tell us about the vast magical and otherwise power potential DS possesses. Shuma cannot simply drain him dry. He still has to bypass Dispel Bound, and DS is capable of reconstructing Dispel Bound shields to the millionth of a second. Shumas actual speed is going to determine if he survives this contest against DS.

Because if Shuma cannot go faster than DS, it has no way of winning here. Dispel Bound will make sure of that. The level of beings doesn't matter here anyway. DS has means of cancelling Shumas immortality and his powers altogether. As far as Satan goes, busting a galaxy was a low end feat for him. At the high end of it, hes a universal being (so after DS stole Satans body, in a sense, he was already a universal level being). Even Satan himself exclaimed DS to be dangerous. A universal being deemed DS dangerous, that tells us something here.

Shuma just sits there and sponges off his energy....

He doesn't even have to move or touch Darsh.

Spell disbound is magic, Shuma eats magic...far more powerful magic.

Galaxy busting won't even make Shuma blink and the energy that Darsh uses to damage reality will be fed to Shuma. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Darsh's energy is massively inferior to Sis neg's and Shuma was eating it like breakfast.

Post by Low (1,379 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@CrosswindVortex: Shuma has to break Dispel Bound if it is to resume the natural process of consumption. Dispel Bound has something called power block that blocks Shumas powers. So Shuma cannot make a move unless Dispel Bound stays down. Thats not happening as long as DS keeps repairing his shield. Is that so hard to understand here?

Dispel Bound envelops the user like a bubble, with layers upon layers of shielding. Whatever power thats targetting DS, is not getting past the shield unless its broken first. DS as said before has millionth of a second to repair it. Its only going to work if Shuma can blitz DS which I don't see happening.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Because Shuma Gorath has barely any fights and most of them are in his depowered state, we have to recognize that his is more based on statements and indirect conclusions partly.

@Low said:

@Saladking:

Okay, heres the deal. A sorcerer like DS managed to beat Shuma, someone with magic that Shuma is eating. Dispel Bound already blocks such trival attempts as eating energy.

@321zigzag1: Oh dispel bound can be broken alright. But, DS was constantly repairing any damage done to it (as they are literally various manners of shields) in a millionth of a second. Some of the shields outright ban certain aspects like power while there are blocks and stuff like that. Shuma is breaking them, but if he is not able to overpower DS's speed of reforming, eventually, DS will just win. He's survived an FTL battle with another Dispel Bound user, countering and repairing at the same time, this was likely slower than his actual speed which would be against Shuma as in this case, he does not have to deal with another Dispel Bound.

Equating Classic Strange at his best with Dark Schneider isn't going to cut it. Dormammu himself who is generally overall above him doesn't compare to Shuma Gorath (if you dispute that make a thread)

So now you say it can be broken? Then why did you say it can't be?

When Classic Strange went to fight Gorath, he was trained under Kaluu in the art of black magic and he surpassed him. Later Classic Strange merged with one of SHuma Gorath's minions, Arioch who was a dimensional god if I recall, who had the power to make himself powerful as he can imagine. (technically no limits fallacy but it speaks of Shuma Gorath's power indirectly)

Even then it didn't do anything so Strange proceeded to absorb Chaos Energy from Shuma Gorath and defeat him but in that process he started to turn into another SHuma Gorath himself.

Even with small portions of Shuma Gorath's power Strange was unconsciously destroying galaxies casually.

Already this is above DS.

The only thing you are hanging on is the whole Dispel Bound hax spell which is relative in its power itself.

If Sise Neg who was going back in time to the original source of the universe, who could destroy Strange with a mere thought self-admittedly, yet in all his powers over reality couldn't do anything to Shuma Gorath.

What does exactly DS has over? DS isn't close to Sise Neg who made Classic Strange overpowered as he is wet his pants.

All you have is this Dispel Bound route.

If you want a situation where Shuma Gorath in his lesser realms was killed off temporarily, it was in Cancerverse by 616 Death.

Except Death is very multiversal.

Post by Low (1,379 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@321zigzag1: Disregarding everything else, considering that he is multiversal+, am I to simply assume DS has no dominion over Shuma? Certainly you don't believe that when a stronger than Darsh wizard (though by behavior both DS and strange dwell in the same level of magic) beats on Shuma, DS would not be capable of doing the same thing? Even Strange was taking dominion over foreign powers and beings in his path to supremecy, the exact same thing DS has done. If I'm to simply accept based on nothing, I guess I should quit? lol. iight. I see how it is.

Post by taichokage (13,619 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Good debate guys. I'm not certain myself. I wish I knew more about Shuma. Sometimes wiki checking isn't enough. It essentially comes down to one point, which is stronger the unstoppable force (Shuma's energy eating) or the immovable object (Dispel Bound)?
Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@taichokage said:

Good debate guys. I'm not certain myself. I wish I knew more about Shuma. Sometimes wiki checking isn't enough. It essentially comes down to one point, which is stronger the unstoppable force (Shuma's energy eating) or the immovable object (Dispel Bound)?

Both are relative. "unstoppable" "immovable" are relative terms.

Heck I will use Math as an example.

In Math there are infinites but they aren't the same size in concept.

Prime Number infinite vs. Positive Numbers infinite? THe latter is more in quantity despite being both infinite.

The point is though Shuma Gorath at his best always operated on a much higher scale. Problem is that he has few appearances.

@Low

said:

@321zigzag1: Disregarding everything else, considering that he is multiversal+, am I to simply assume DS has no dominion over Shuma? Certainly you don't believe that when a stronger than Darsh wizard (though by behavior both DS and strange dwell in the same level of magic) beats on Shuma,

All you have is Dispel Bound.

What exactly do I have a reason to believe DS can do better than what Death the concept herself did in Cancerverse?

What exactly do I have a reason to believe DS can do better than what Sise Neg can do?

@Low said:

@321zigzag1: DS would not be capable of doing the same thing? Even Strange was taking dominion over foreign powers and beings in his path to supremecy, the exact same thing DS has done.

You are arguing more on concepts than just more on feats. Be more specific in what you are saying on what DS did. You say DS did what STrange did.

Show me. Surely it wouldn't be too difficult?

Just because they both did something similar doesn't automatically translate they are on the same level.

For example Avatar State Aang and Rikudo Sennin are conceptually similar. Yet by feats they are clearly not.

You seem to be going on a tangent DS being a magic user automatically grants STrange feats to him. Except feats are the most important.

All you argued was Dispel Bound and you first initially claimed it was invincible but then you admitted they can be broken. It's all relative.

Here I will start things off then.

Classic Strange fluctuates. Normally he would be weaker than DS by a strong margin but at his best he operates universal to beyond. For example he can be an avatar for Eternity. His power fluctuation also depends on his conjuring power.

Normally Shuma Gorath's showings on earth are pitiful to his real self in his actual dimension with the exception of Sise Neg. But I am assuming Shuma Gorath is at his best the neutral dimension can allow.

@Low said:

@321zigzag1: If I'm to simply accept based on nothing, I guess I should quit? lol. iight. I see how it is.

You never bothered to even counter Death example or Sise Neg example yet you call it nothing.

For what purpose?

Who told you it was nothing?

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