Battles

@ohgodwhy said:

@shonen said:

@Speedforcespider The ASSJ transformation is a transformation as evident when android 18 states that vegeta is transforming before he began to battle Semi-Perfect Cell. It is just not the true ascended transformation of the SSJ, but Is a transformation in its own right

http://www.daizex.com/guides/transformations/saiyan/

Also Trunks stated Vegeta was able to have taken a couple of months ( 2-3 months) by Trunks to obtain ASSJ, he used the remaining months to train and fight effectively with it in battle. Trunks and Goten had 1 full month in the ROSAT, and were shown training together. It was shown in the series that training together one can progress faster than someone training alone. Vegeta and Trunks trained by themselves, so the time taken for them to obtain the form would have been longer than with Trunks and Goten.

I estimate then that Trunks and Goten obtain the ASSJ just shortly before the arrival of Super Buu, which also would explain how they were able to access the SSJ3 transformation.

@ohgodwhy

I’m going to analyzing your argument and breaking it down into point forms.

That analogy you used doesn't really have much meaning here. Android 18 was joking around with SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks, she could've killed them easily at anytime. In fact I would say she was more serious during her fight against Trunks and Goten.

Android 18 wasn't using her full strength in either case, as evident by the fact that she thought Mighty mask was a regular human and was holding back the whole time. Trunks and Goten did not even get a hit in on her, and she was in control of the whole fight. While SSJ Vegeta was shown to get hits in on 18, and actually knock her into the ground and fire a direct ki blast that incinerated her close, and left scorch marks on her body.

Also my analogy does fit it is just you never understood it really to begin with. Here is something closer to home.

http://youtu.be/BNNX3k_golI

Piccolo is stated to have a power level of 3.5 K yet none of his attacks were shown to surprise and alarm vegeta. While Gohan masenko had a power level of 2,800 and Vegeta is shown visible shock and startled telling Nappa to watch out he is more powerful than he appears. The reason for this is because they weren’t expecting a 3 year old to have so much power for his age, This scenario is similar for 18 at the Budokai.

Also both translations still show that she was shocked by their strength. Which obviously shows she wasn't anticipating them to be anywhere near as strong as they were. When she fought Vegeta, nothing he did even fazed her.

Nothing fazed her because both 18 and 17 already had personal information on Vegeta, and had a rough idea of how powerful he was, even though vegeta did exceed their expectations they gradually were able to assess his strength in battle. Trunks and Goten are two little kids who were able to fire off a powerful attack at a level well beyond their years. This would shock anyone in battle. Think of it as fighting a little girl who is able to hit as hard as mike Tyson, wouldn’t that shock you in a fight ?

Besides she had to dodge the attack, if she was strong enough she could've easily taken the hit like she could against Vegeta or failing that she could've deflected it. Trust me, that attack they did would've caused 18 some serious harm.

She decided to dodge the attack does not indicate that she would have gotten damage; it was just her preference to doge the attack. Even when battleling Vegeta she showed preference to dodge ki base attacks whenever possible rather than taking them head on or deflecting them. Possibly because she doesn't want her clothes all ruined as evident when vegeta attack actually hit her in the androic arc.

Example - 18 choose to dodge vegeta attack rather than take it head on.

http://i.imgur.com/LlMF1.jpg

Then you say that she was holding back and she was at the disadvantage because she didn't want to kill them. Do you honestly think they wanted to kill her too? Chances are they didn't realize just how powerful they were because like you said, they don't have great ki control. I doubt they wanted to kill innocent people too. As well as this they had the massive disadvantage of fighting on each others shoulders. They were frustrated during that fight because they couldn't get in sync with each other, as they both stated several times. That's a huge disadvantage.

Budokai tournament rules state that if you kill a combatant you are disqualified from the tournament.Android 18 did not know who mighty mask was, and wrote him off as a human, if she pushed to hard and fought at full strength she could have possibly killed him and lose any chance of gaining the prize money. I never said Trunks and Goten wanted to kill her.

Actually I said Goten does not have ki control as in Goten has poor aim and control over his kamehameha attack as evident against his match with trunks. Whether they wanted to or not is not the problem. The problem is 18 realize it was Goten and Trunks the minute they turned SSJ, what she didn’t know was whether it wasTrunks or Goten who was firing the shots. Also whether they wanted to or not the first Attack they fired was rather close and near to the city, she couldn’t risk them firing another shot and damaging/KILLING someone. Think of it as equivalent to a grown woman trying to disarm a gun from a small child who is firing the gun in the middle of the street.

Goku at 23 Budokai was able to fight effectively against Tienshinhan wearing weighed clothing. The clothes Trunks and Goten wore was not weighed down and would only provide mild disadvantage in moving about in the battle field. This is the only disadvantage it gave and it did not slow down how fast they punched or kicked in base. It can also be seen that them not being in sync actually is an advantage more than a disadvantage seeing that 18 would have a hard press time in determining their attacks since its two independent minds controlling the arms and legs. Lastly, Trunks stating their at a disadvantage is in keeping with his character, he is a little kid after all, and would use any excuse possible to explain his failings.

Finally we don't know how well she would've done against them when they went SSJ. She only won that fight because she outsmarted them and attacked their middle. They both went the wrong way to dodge and thus ended up being split in half. So she was basically pushing them back a little in the base form and as soon as they turned SSJ and fired off what they thought was a weak ki blast, she had no choice but to dodge it and showed great shock at how much power they had.

Actually the destructo disc is actually a good indicator her powers against gotten and trunks. It has been shown numerous times in the series that the destructo disc is one of the slowest base ki attacks, even slower than a generic ki blast.

Example

Freiza was able to dodge a barrage of krillin destructo disc attacks casually in his 2 form. Nappa evaded krillins destructo disc within inches of it hitting him. Goku evaded Freiza’s destructo disc casually without showing any signs of trouble. Yet when Trunks and Goten are faced with android 18 destructo disc in the scan below, they are shown panicking from the attack, and failed to casually move out the way as so many fighters in the past have done. This indicates that 18 still had the advantage.

The anime also alludes to her fighting the kids just fine when they are SSJ.

http://i.imgur.com/Sfh11.jpg

I thought you were raising some vaild points before, points that I disagreed with, but valid nonetheless but then you went and said that. They were at a HUGE disadvantage, for you to say that they were at a mild disadvantage and then to change even that to a advantage is to me, ludicrous. Try fighting with someone on your shoulders and tell me that it's easier. Trunks basically had no use of his legs and Goten had no use of his arms so obviously that's an almost debilitating handicap right there. The weighted clothes arguement that you made holds no weight here (pardon the pun). Like I said, I'd rather fight in weighted clothes than on top of someone's shoulders and so can most people in the world I imagine.

I kind of get what you're saying about having two independent minds fighting but at the end of the day they can't communicate effectively with one another at all. Say if Trunks wants to back off but Goten wants to kick, then there's obviously going to be a problem there. If Trunks wants to move anywhere, he'd have to give a vocal command to Goten which would obviously waste a lot time and probably give away their next move to their opponent.

Plus they both were having problems, not just Trunks.

Sorry man but I totally, 100% disagree with that particular statement.

As for the rest of your arguement, she knew Might Mask wasn't an ordinary human. This was evident when both Might Mask and 18 totally ignored Hercule and unless she's stupid she should've realised he wasn't an ordinary human he started flying.

Most of DBZ is pretty open to interpretation so while I respect your opinion, I don't really agree with it. Only that one point I really strongly disagreed with.

I rather fight with someone on top of me, than try to fight someone wearing 250 lb body suit on me.

@ohgodwhy said:

@shonen: Their suits really don't weigh them down that much lol. I mean they can still move around pretty freely. I'd imagine it being more like wearing a 30lb body suit or something in comparison (probably a lot less seeing as how much stronger they are than a normal human anyway), enough to slow you down but not affect your performance massively, provided you engage in regular training.

Its estimated the body suit goku was wearing at 23rd Budokai when fighting tien is 250 lbs  (boots, armbands and shirt 50 pounds each) . The reason it doesn't appear to affect goku in battle is because goku has been training with it before coming to the tournament. It follows the same principle as Kame-sennin turtle shell. When goku was fighting tien, tien was faster than goku, but once goku removed his weighed clothing he was so fast that Tien had problems tracking his movements, and even when he caught him, Goku had time to grab tien's robe before he was aware. Compare this then to trunks and goten fighting 18, in clothes that don't weigh anything, and them standing on top of each other. 
 
Goku 's  friends themselves tried moving around in the clothes and they found it quite difficult to even fight in it.
 
This is why like i said I much rather prefer fighting someone while standing on top of my best friend than fight someone while trying to move my limbs because I have 
 
50 lb shirt, armband and boots strapped to my body and can't lift a limb.
 
Its obvious goku and company would have increased their weights as they got more powerful.

@niBBit said:

@ohgodwhy: Agreed. There suit should have handicapted them by some degree but to say that there power is cut by like 75% is ludicrous. The boys are great martial artists Goten was able to spar with Gohan SSJ, hell in there suit they manged to land some weird kicks at 18 witch an normal person could never do, 18 got behind Mighty Mask and Goten turned his body while Trunks was facing forward and kicked her in the gut, try doing that yourself without breaking some stuff :)

As for this battle, the boys would murder Cooler, even 1 vs 1 Cooler gets murdered.

In the manga the boys never landed a hit on 18. Though I do agree they win against Cooler.

@ohgodwhy said:

@shonen: Yeah obviously normal humans wouldn't be able to move around very much but someone like Goku who trains constantly with that that weight on, who's probably more than 100x stronger than your average human wouldn't have much trouble moving around with that weight on.

To Goku, having 250lbs on him must've felt like having less than 5lbs on a regular human, is what I'm getting at.

Heck I bet some real life body builders could easily move around with 250lbs on their body. 50lbs is about 22kg. I bicep curl 18kg with one arm for 10 reps and I'm by no means big at all. Most bodybuilders can easily bicep curl at least 80lbs. So having 250lbs of weighted clothing on isn't even that much of a big deal. Lets look at it another way, the Bench Press record is 1075lbs. Yeah the guy only did it for one rep, but that's one human lifting 4x Goku's weighted clothing.

Lol. Yeah her technique is crap, but still.....

Hope you can see now that 250lbs for Goku would be like 5lbs for a regular human.

 
Except when goku friends tried on his clothes they were shown to have problems moving about the battle field and asked Goku how he was able to fight in all of this. Tien was even shocked by the weight of the clothes and said " he (Goku) was able to fight me in all of this" . They made it out be a big deal, but while the numbers appear small for the Z fighters, we should not forget Toriyama thought Goku lifting 40 tons by Buu arc would be a good idea. This is early dragon ball by the way. Another instance is when Piccolo and Goku fought raditz. Their power level were about 312-330 i think and when they removed their weighed clothing it jumped to 400-450.
 
I'm not familiar with all weight, techniques but their is one where you have dumbells and you move them up from your hips in a  clockwise direction  until the weights are aligned with your shoulders then move them back down to your hips. Its much more difficult to do than bicep curls, and would what i'd image punching would feel like wearing the weights.

@EganTheVile1 said:

@shonen said:

@XImpossibruX said:

@Sonata said:

@XImpossibruX: Metal Cooler would give them a tougher fight, the original Cooler not so much.

It's hilarious how some people on the Vine think Final Form Cooler can beat 2 Super Saiyans.

The same 2 Super Saiyans who gave Android 18 a good fight, and she is way above Early SSj level.

They didn't really give 18 a good fight. She was holding back the hold time.

She was not holding back, she just realized that she was fighting Trunks and Goten who were wearing the Mighty Mask costume and cut the costume in half revealing who they were and getting them DQ'd... It was the best tactic she could use to win, as for the question at hand, Cooler gave base level Goku a decent fight, and was undoubtedly stronger then his brother or father, but he still fell short against an SSJ, now it could be argued Trunks and Goten are no where near Goku's skill, but since they achieved fusion, and I did not see a no fusion clause, I would say that since they have the ability to become Gotenks, an SSJ 3 they have an edge, beyond that since we are talking a movie continuity character like Cooler, I will point out that they survived against Broly, a stronger character.

I'm not going through this explanation again. please refer to my post from the last 2 pages.

@ReIKai
 
Explain this statement made by Goten while inside the room of spirit of time training with Trunks.
 *Context: Trunks and Goten resting after training*
Goten:I can't believe their is something even stronger than a SSJ.

@ReiKai said:

Explanation: As Previously noted, they could only go SS3 while as Gotenks. They are Both exhausted and the purpose of training was to match their PLs and master the Fusion Dance. Going SS3 also diminishes the time they can remain as Gotenks due to the energy consumption involved.  Nothing has changed. Unless you got something showing Goten and Trunks Separately as ASSJ's or anything about a normal SSJ, then you really don't have an argument.

When has it been shown that people who fuse are aware of what they did when fused ?
 
It has always been indicated that the fused character is completely different being from the two characters who they are fused from, so where would they have recalled accessing SSJ 3 from then ? In the words of Gogeta "I am not Goku or Vegeta I am Gogeta its over Janemba I've come fro you".

@ReiKai said:

A better question is Why Wouldn't they?  There is no end run around this. You can't proven Goten and Trunks can go any higher than SSJ without Fusion, and that's the end of it.

The reason because the fused character are a completely different entity from that of the people who were used to fuse them; see Gogeta exact quote. I just provided evidence above that suggest they accessed a higher form that can be interpreted to mean them individually accessing a higher SSJ transformation.

@ReiKai said:

What you showed was nothing more than a Character Statement which more Refers to their ability as Gotenks and not their Personal ability. When Fused it doesn't make them a new person with New memories. The Fused being is not a Baby that needs to be Taught, it is the Collective Power, Ability and Knowledge of the two people who performed the Fusion. The change in Attitude is due to the power flux making them feel invincible. Kitibokai felt the same way when they fused via Potara. Piccolo had that sudden rush when Nail merged with him. And Vegito did the same thing as well. It's what we call a Side Effect.

 
Going to break it down your argument
 
What you showed was nothing more than a Character Statement which more Refers to their ability as Gotenks and not their Personal ability
 
Actually it is never specified whether the ability is exclusive for Gotenks or Trunks and Goten.  The fact they are aware of the Ultra Super Saiyan form indicates that they must have unlocked it on their own and thought it would be enough for Gotenks.
 
When Fused it doesn't make them a new person with New memories. he Fused being is not a Baby that needs to be Taught, it is the Collective Power, Ability and Knowledge of the two people who performed the Fusion
 
I never said the fused person was some baby that had no memories. What I was saying is that the person resulting from the fusion is a new person entirely (with a personality that is a mixture of the two fusion materials used to form him/her) , and  with collective memories of the people involved with the fusion. Daizenshuu even confirms this
 

• Dance Fusion (Fusion-ha) : Two characters must equal their fighting powers and energy, and perform a three-stage dance (stepping away from each other, stepping back towards each other, extending their index fingers, and touching their index fingers together; they must also say "Fu / sion / HA!" during each step, respectively). The resulting character has its own persona (personality) and attitude, as well as fancy new clothes (such as the ubiquitous vest). Under normal circumstances, the fusion lasts for 30 full minutes. Stages like SSJ3 and SSJ4 reduce this, however, due to the strain on the body. Also, each character must wait a full 60 minutes after de-fusing before being able to do so, again.

 http://www.daizex.com/guides/transformations/fusion/

Also just because the fused person has the collective memories of the people who fuses to make him. Does not imply the people who fuses them have memories of the fused character/
More simply
 
Just because A implies B does not mean B implies A. This is bad logic 
 
Gotenks for example and even Vegetto have never demonstrated techniques of Goku/Vegeta or Goten/Trunks have never displayed. They have a completely unique set of fighting techniques, which just confirm that their a completely unique individual.
  

@ReiKai said:

What is Bad Logic is you trying to use a Character Statement to Suggest something that everyone knows is Unproven.  All this run-around BS you try and concoct is meaningless. The Only thing that is needed is a scan of Trunks and/or Goten actually displaying a SSJ form other than the regular SSJ. That's it. And we all know you can't do it, because it doesn't exist. Not in the anime. Not in the manga. Not even in the movies or (Toriayam forbid) the GT series. Never have they Ever displayed anything beyond SSJ in their entire careers outside of Fusing into Gotenks.

Gt trunks was shown producing spark and lighting similar to ultra SSJ future trunks when  Baby was inside him. GT overall leaves out sparks of characters as evident that despite being a SSJ2 sparks remain absent on vegeta throughout GT.
 
In the original manga we are never given enough time to see whether the character can go Ultra SSJ. Trunks and Goten  are immediately absorbed by Buu and their role for the rest of the SERIES is them being on the sidelines.
 
The movies for the most part are an alternate timeline of the orignal storyline so i don't know what relevance they have there.
 
All I'm suggesting it is possible they could have acquired it, and which would explain how before ROSAT they could only go to SSJ, you Post ROSAT could jump to SSJ3. I also don't see how character statements equal bad logic. Sometimes writers don't show all the feats, and use character statements instead.