I rather fight with someone on top of me, than try to fight someone wearing 250 lb body suit on me.
@Speedforcespider The ASSJ transformation is a transformation as evident when android 18 states that vegeta is transforming before he began to battle Semi-Perfect Cell. It is just not the true ascended transformation of the SSJ, but Is a transformation in its own right
Also Trunks stated Vegeta was able to have taken a couple of months ( 2-3 months) by Trunks to obtain ASSJ, he used the remaining months to train and fight effectively with it in battle. Trunks and Goten had 1 full month in the ROSAT, and were shown training together. It was shown in the series that training together one can progress faster than someone training alone. Vegeta and Trunks trained by themselves, so the time taken for them to obtain the form would have been longer than with Trunks and Goten.
I estimate then that Trunks and Goten obtain the ASSJ just shortly before the arrival of Super Buu, which also would explain how they were able to access the SSJ3 transformation.
I’m going to analyzing your argument and breaking it down into point forms.
That analogy you used doesn't really have much meaning here. Android 18 was joking around with SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks, she could've killed them easily at anytime. In fact I would say she was more serious during her fight against Trunks and Goten.
Android 18 wasn't using her full strength in either case, as evident by the fact that she thought Mighty mask was a regular human and was holding back the whole time. Trunks and Goten did not even get a hit in on her, and she was in control of the whole fight. While SSJ Vegeta was shown to get hits in on 18, and actually knock her into the ground and fire a direct ki blast that incinerated her close, and left scorch marks on her body.
Also my analogy does fit it is just you never understood it really to begin with. Here is something closer to home.
Piccolo is stated to have a power level of 3.5 K yet none of his attacks were shown to surprise and alarm vegeta. While Gohan masenko had a power level of 2,800 and Vegeta is shown visible shock and startled telling Nappa to watch out he is more powerful than he appears. The reason for this is because they weren’t expecting a 3 year old to have so much power for his age, This scenario is similar for 18 at the Budokai.
Also both translations still show that she was shocked by their strength. Which obviously shows she wasn't anticipating them to be anywhere near as strong as they were. When she fought Vegeta, nothing he did even fazed her.
Nothing fazed her because both 18 and 17 already had personal information on Vegeta, and had a rough idea of how powerful he was, even though vegeta did exceed their expectations they gradually were able to assess his strength in battle. Trunks and Goten are two little kids who were able to fire off a powerful attack at a level well beyond their years. This would shock anyone in battle. Think of it as fighting a little girl who is able to hit as hard as mike Tyson, wouldn’t that shock you in a fight ?
Besides she had to dodge the attack, if she was strong enough she could've easily taken the hit like she could against Vegeta or failing that she could've deflected it. Trust me, that attack they did would've caused 18 some serious harm.
She decided to dodge the attack does not indicate that she would have gotten damage; it was just her preference to doge the attack. Even when battleling Vegeta she showed preference to dodge ki base attacks whenever possible rather than taking them head on or deflecting them. Possibly because she doesn't want her clothes all ruined as evident when vegeta attack actually hit her in the androic arc.
Example - 18 choose to dodge vegeta attack rather than take it head on.
Then you say that she was holding back and she was at the disadvantage because she didn't want to kill them. Do you honestly think they wanted to kill her too? Chances are they didn't realize just how powerful they were because like you said, they don't have great ki control. I doubt they wanted to kill innocent people too. As well as this they had the massive disadvantage of fighting on each others shoulders. They were frustrated during that fight because they couldn't get in sync with each other, as they both stated several times. That's a huge disadvantage.
Budokai tournament rules state that if you kill a combatant you are disqualified from the tournament.Android 18 did not know who mighty mask was, and wrote him off as a human, if she pushed to hard and fought at full strength she could have possibly killed him and lose any chance of gaining the prize money. I never said Trunks and Goten wanted to kill her.
Actually I said Goten does not have ki control as in Goten has poor aim and control over his kamehameha attack as evident against his match with trunks. Whether they wanted to or not is not the problem. The problem is 18 realize it was Goten and Trunks the minute they turned SSJ, what she didn’t know was whether it wasTrunks or Goten who was firing the shots. Also whether they wanted to or not the first Attack they fired was rather close and near to the city, she couldn’t risk them firing another shot and damaging/KILLING someone. Think of it as equivalent to a grown woman trying to disarm a gun from a small child who is firing the gun in the middle of the street.
Goku at 23 Budokai was able to fight effectively against Tienshinhan wearing weighed clothing. The clothes Trunks and Goten wore was not weighed down and would only provide mild disadvantage in moving about in the battle field. This is the only disadvantage it gave and it did not slow down how fast they punched or kicked in base. It can also be seen that them not being in sync actually is an advantage more than a disadvantage seeing that 18 would have a hard press time in determining their attacks since its two independent minds controlling the arms and legs. Lastly, Trunks stating their at a disadvantage is in keeping with his character, he is a little kid after all, and would use any excuse possible to explain his failings.
Finally we don't know how well she would've done against them when they went SSJ. She only won that fight because she outsmarted them and attacked their middle. They both went the wrong way to dodge and thus ended up being split in half. So she was basically pushing them back a little in the base form and as soon as they turned SSJ and fired off what they thought was a weak ki blast, she had no choice but to dodge it and showed great shock at how much power they had.
Actually the destructo disc is actually a good indicator her powers against gotten and trunks. It has been shown numerous times in the series that the destructo disc is one of the slowest base ki attacks, even slower than a generic ki blast.
Freiza was able to dodge a barrage of krillin destructo disc attacks casually in his 2 form. Nappa evaded krillins destructo disc within inches of it hitting him. Goku evaded Freiza’s destructo disc casually without showing any signs of trouble. Yet when Trunks and Goten are faced with android 18 destructo disc in the scan below, they are shown panicking from the attack, and failed to casually move out the way as so many fighters in the past have done. This indicates that 18 still had the advantage.
The anime also alludes to her fighting the kids just fine when they are SSJ.
I thought you were raising some vaild points before, points that I disagreed with, but valid nonetheless but then you went and said that. They were at a HUGE disadvantage, for you to say that they were at a mild disadvantage and then to change even that to a advantage is to me, ludicrous. Try fighting with someone on your shoulders and tell me that it's easier. Trunks basically had no use of his legs and Goten had no use of his arms so obviously that's an almost debilitating handicap right there. The weighted clothes arguement that you made holds no weight here (pardon the pun). Like I said, I'd rather fight in weighted clothes than on top of someone's shoulders and so can most people in the world I imagine.
I kind of get what you're saying about having two independent minds fighting but at the end of the day they can't communicate effectively with one another at all. Say if Trunks wants to back off but Goten wants to kick, then there's obviously going to be a problem there. If Trunks wants to move anywhere, he'd have to give a vocal command to Goten which would obviously waste a lot time and probably give away their next move to their opponent.
Plus they both were having problems, not just Trunks.
Sorry man but I totally, 100% disagree with that particular statement.
As for the rest of your arguement, she knew Might Mask wasn't an ordinary human. This was evident when both Might Mask and 18 totally ignored Hercule and unless she's stupid she should've realised he wasn't an ordinary human he started flying.
Most of DBZ is pretty open to interpretation so while I respect your opinion, I don't really agree with it. Only that one point I really strongly disagreed with.