Battles

@niBBit said:

@ReiKai: Yeah remember when the boys went into the RoSaT to train and went from Gotenks SSJ to SSJ3 in a matter of days or weeks? Piccolo told Super Buu to wait for 1 hour but after 30 minutes he got impatiencend so Piccolo led Super Buu to the RoSaT using a detour buying them a couple of extra minutes so the boys where in the RoSaT for a short time but they still achieved SSJ3, hell when Trunks and Vegeta went into the RoSaT during the Cell Saga Trunks replied that it took Vegeta a couple of months to transform (Super Vegeta) its idiotic to think that the boys achieved SSJ2 and SSJ3 in such a short amount of time.

As for Abo and Kado, your right it was never sated witch version of Frieza Tarble was refering to. Not many (if any) have seen Frieza in his Final Form much less Tarble who was on another planet and is still using his scouter to detect PL's so to me i think he was refering to Frieza's first form when comparing Abo/Kado's PL's. The boys fought them pretty evenly and if (if) Tarble was refering to Frieza's first form who had an PL of around 530.000 than adding the SSJ multiplier puts the boys at around 265 Mil almost twice as strong as Goku when he went SSJ, witch in turn adds a whole lot of plot holes :)

It was impied the boys unlocked the ascended SSJ transformation after training inside the room. The Mr. Pop scene BTW is filler.

@ReiKai said:

It was never proven and not really implied. Goten and Trunks never show SSJ2 or even FPSSJ. They only ever appear to show such when fused as Gotenks, which gives them a body more reminisce of Cell Games Gohan. So it really has no meaning as individually they couldn't do it.

I remember Trunks commenting with Goten in the ROSAT before Buu arrives that it was nice to know that there are other forms of SSJ. This hints the kids were only aware of SSJ, and must have unlocked a new form similar to Vegeta and Trunks while training for to fight Buu. Judging by their level of power before they went in, and the time frame they had the only logical choice is ASSJ.

BTW this does not mean the kids are in any way shape of form on Vegeta and Trunks level post ROSAT.

The boys did not unlock ASSJ and that is not the logical choice. They were learning ways to perfect their fusion, they spent no time trying to unlock transformations outside fusion with so little time.

@ohgodwhy said:

I'd give this one to the boys.

The way I see it 18 beat SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks with almost no difficulty. I would argue that at least both the SSJs, while not being at Goku's level, should've been fairly close to it and strong enough to take on Cooler.

Just the mere fact that Goten's and Trunk's attack could scare 18, while she laughed off all of SSJ Vegeta's attacks shows me that they should be far more powerful than SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks pre-ROSAT and therefore more powerful than Cooler.

Thank you for clarifying the fact I made earlier.

I already explained the difference between Vegeta and trunks vs android 18, and those of the little kids on the first page,

http://108.60.201.122/46%2F490_46_%2Fdb41pg049.GIF

Goten: I can't believe their is something even stronger than a SSJ.

@SpeedForceSpider Logical thinking person - since the boys are only aware of SSJ, as evident by the above statement and the only know step from SSJ is the ASSJ form, then logically the boys must have learned the ASSJ transformation in the room of spirit and time.

@ohgodwhy: I agree with you 100% dude.

@ReiKai:

Goku had received a Zenkai prior to re-engaging Cooler.

Okay I forgot about Zenkai's since they started to become meaningless after Frieza Saga.

Also, as for Trunks and Goten talking about "higher levels of SSJ". That doesn't have to do with Them figuring out, it was from Goku demonstrating it to them. Vegeta had never gone SS2 for Trunks and Goten and Trunks weren't there when Gohan went SS2 to show Kibito his power. And Gohan clearly never went SS2 during training with Goten. They also never witnessed Majin Vegeta going SS2 to fight Goku.

Glad we agree on something.

@shonen said:

I already explained the difference between Vegeta and trunks vs android 18, and those of the little kids on the first page,

http://108.60.201.122/46%2F490_46_%2Fdb41pg049.GIF

Goten: I can't believe their is something even stronger than a SSJ.

@SpeedForceSpider Logical thinking person - since the boys are only aware of SSJ, as evident by the above statement and the only know step from SSJ is the ASSJ form, then logically the boys must have learned the ASSJ transformation in the room of spirit and time.

ASSJ isn't technically a transformation. It is a forced increase in the power output of the initial transformation, and thus it is not an actual transformation.

The boy's are prodigy's but they are not smart enough on their own to figure out how to become ASSJ's. It took their Fathers long tough training to figure out how to surpass basic SSJ.

@ohgodwhy said:

@shonen said:

The point brought across that Android 18 wasn't impressed with Vegeta but was shocked by Trunks blast isn't as black and white as people think.It is analogous to this situation

Say you are a professional boxer, and your go up against boxer A, who is muscular. When Boxer A punches you, you already have a perception of how strong you would think his punches are, and so would not be fazed when they land on you.

However, say you go up against boxer B, who is a scrawny fellow. If Boxer B punches are equivalent to Boxer A punches you would be taken back by them because you weren't expecting that

. In short what I am trying to say that you wouldn't be expecting a little kid like trunks to have such power at such a young age, so you would be surprised by it.

--

My own personal interpretation

Trunks (Pre-ROSAT) = SSJ Vegeta (android arc), with Goten slightly weaker than him, probably equivalent to SSJ Trunks (Android arc).

That analogy you used doesn't really have much meaning here. Android 18 was joking around with SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks, she could've killed them easily at anytime. In fact I would say she was more serious during her fight against Trunks and Goten.

Also both translations still show that she was shocked by their strength. Which obviously shows she wasn't anticipating them to be anywhere near as strong as they were. When she fought Vegeta, nothing he did even fazed her. Besides she had to dodge the attack, if she was strong enough she could've easily taken the hit like she could against Vegeta or failing that she could've deflected it. Trust me, that attack they did would've caused 18 some serious harm.

Then you say that she was holding back and she was at the disadvantage because she didn't want to kill them. Do you honestly think they wanted to kill her too? Chances are they didn't realise just how powerful they were because like you said, they don't have great ki control. I doubt they wanted to kill innocent people too. As well as this they had the massive disadvantage of fighting on each others shoulders. They were frustrated during that fight because they couldn't get in sync with each other, as they both stated several times. That's a huge disadvantage.

Finally we don't know how well she would've done against them when they went SSJ. She only won that fight because she outsmarted them and attacked their middle. They both went the wrong way to dodge and thus ended up being split in half. So she was basically pushing them back a little in the base form and as soon as they turned SSJ and fired off what they thought was a weak ki blast, she had no choice but to dodge it and showed great shock at how much power they had.

SSJ Goten and Trunks should be more powerful than 18 IMO.

Put them both up against Cooler and it should be a fairly easy win.

Excellent post man. But also remember Goten whined about firing a deadly blast so Trunks was holding back with the shot he fired.

@Speedforcespider The ASSJ transformation is a transformation as evident when android 18 states that vegeta is transforming before he began to battle Semi-Perfect Cell. It is just not the true ascended transformation of the SSJ, but Is a transformation in its own right

http://www.daizex.com/guides/transformations/saiyan/

Also Trunks stated Vegeta was able to have taken a couple of months ( 2-3 months) by Trunks to obtain ASSJ, he used the remaining months to train and fight effectively with it in battle. Trunks and Goten had 1 full month in the ROSAT, and were shown training together. It was shown in the series that training together one can progress faster than someone training alone. Vegeta and Trunks trained by themselves, so the time taken for them to obtain the form would have been longer than with Trunks and Goten.

I estimate then that Trunks and Goten obtain the ASSJ just shortly before the arrival of Super Buu, which also would explain how they were able to access the SSJ3 transformation.

@ohgodwhy

I’m going to analyzing your argument and breaking it down into point forms.

That analogy you used doesn't really have much meaning here. Android 18 was joking around with SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks, she could've killed them easily at anytime. In fact I would say she was more serious during her fight against Trunks and Goten.

Android 18 wasn't using her full strength in either case, as evident by the fact that she thought Mighty mask was a regular human and was holding back the whole time. Trunks and Goten did not even get a hit in on her, and she was in control of the whole fight. While SSJ Vegeta was shown to get hits in on 18, and actually knock her into the ground and fire a direct ki blast that incinerated her close, and left scorch marks on her body.

Also my analogy does fit it is just you never understood it really to begin with. Here is something closer to home.

http://youtu.be/BNNX3k_golI

Piccolo is stated to have a power level of 3.5 K yet none of his attacks were shown to surprise and alarm vegeta. While Gohan masenko had a power level of 2,800 and Vegeta is shown visible shock and startled telling Nappa to watch out he is more powerful than he appears. The reason for this is because they weren’t expecting a 3 year old to have so much power for his age, This scenario is similar for 18 at the Budokai.

Also both translations still show that she was shocked by their strength. Which obviously shows she wasn't anticipating them to be anywhere near as strong as they were. When she fought Vegeta, nothing he did even fazed her.

Nothing fazed her because both 18 and 17 already had personal information on Vegeta, and had a rough idea of how powerful he was, even though vegeta did exceed their expectations they gradually were able to assess his strength in battle. Trunks and Goten are two little kids who were able to fire off a powerful attack at a level well beyond their years. This would shock anyone in battle. Think of it as fighting a little girl who is able to hit as hard as mike Tyson, wouldn’t that shock you in a fight ?

Besides she had to dodge the attack, if she was strong enough she could've easily taken the hit like she could against Vegeta or failing that she could've deflected it. Trust me, that attack they did would've caused 18 some serious harm.

She decided to dodge the attack does not indicate that she would have gotten damage; it was just her preference to doge the attack. Even when battleling Vegeta she showed preference to dodge ki base attacks whenever possible rather than taking them head on or deflecting them. Possibly because she doesn't want her clothes all ruined as evident when vegeta attack actually hit her in the androic arc.

Example - 18 choose to dodge vegeta attack rather than take it head on.

http://i.imgur.com/LlMF1.jpg

Then you say that she was holding back and she was at the disadvantage because she didn't want to kill them. Do you honestly think they wanted to kill her too? Chances are they didn't realize just how powerful they were because like you said, they don't have great ki control. I doubt they wanted to kill innocent people too. As well as this they had the massive disadvantage of fighting on each others shoulders. They were frustrated during that fight because they couldn't get in sync with each other, as they both stated several times. That's a huge disadvantage.

Budokai tournament rules state that if you kill a combatant you are disqualified from the tournament.Android 18 did not know who mighty mask was, and wrote him off as a human, if she pushed to hard and fought at full strength she could have possibly killed him and lose any chance of gaining the prize money. I never said Trunks and Goten wanted to kill her.

Actually I said Goten does not have ki control as in Goten has poor aim and control over his kamehameha attack as evident against his match with trunks. Whether they wanted to or not is not the problem. The problem is 18 realize it was Goten and Trunks the minute they turned SSJ, what she didn’t know was whether it wasTrunks or Goten who was firing the shots. Also whether they wanted to or not the first Attack they fired was rather close and near to the city, she couldn’t risk them firing another shot and damaging/KILLING someone. Think of it as equivalent to a grown woman trying to disarm a gun from a small child who is firing the gun in the middle of the street.

Goku at 23 Budokai was able to fight effectively against Tienshinhan wearing weighed clothing. The clothes Trunks and Goten wore was not weighed down and would only provide mild disadvantage in moving about in the battle field. This is the only disadvantage it gave and it did not slow down how fast they punched or kicked in base. It can also be seen that them not being in sync actually is an advantage more than a disadvantage seeing that 18 would have a hard press time in determining their attacks since its two independent minds controlling the arms and legs. Lastly, Trunks stating their at a disadvantage is in keeping with his character, he is a little kid after all, and would use any excuse possible to explain his failings.

Finally we don't know how well she would've done against them when they went SSJ. She only won that fight because she outsmarted them and attacked their middle. They both went the wrong way to dodge and thus ended up being split in half. So she was basically pushing them back a little in the base form and as soon as they turned SSJ and fired off what they thought was a weak ki blast, she had no choice but to dodge it and showed great shock at how much power they had.

Actually the destructo disc is actually a good indicator her powers against gotten and trunks. It has been shown numerous times in the series that the destructo disc is one of the slowest base ki attacks, even slower than a generic ki blast.

Example

Freiza was able to dodge a barrage of krillin destructo disc attacks casually in his 2 form. Nappa evaded krillins destructo disc within inches of it hitting him. Goku evaded Freiza’s destructo disc casually without showing any signs of trouble. Yet when Trunks and Goten are faced with android 18 destructo disc in the scan below, they are shown panicking from the attack, and failed to casually move out the way as so many fighters in the past have done. This indicates that 18 still had the advantage.

The anime also alludes to her fighting the kids just fine when they are SSJ.

http://i.imgur.com/Sfh11.jpg

@shonen: What 18 said is hyperbole how would she know the levels of SSJ? Even Goku figured out ASSJ is not a transformation. He proved it to Gohan by forcing out the power output and easily ascending into a USSJ.

Also, he knew SSJ2 was the true predecessor after Gohan's brief transformation.

Again, what proof do you have that they would learn of this? Goten and Trunks saw a SSJ3 and wanted to quickly learn how to become one. Since the ASSJ is a branch of the regular SSJ it does not tie with the other ascended forms and thus irrelevent in their path to a SSJ3. You must access SSJ2 in order to obtain SSJ3, not a branched off version of the first.

The link you gave proved my point, it is only surpassing the limitations of the regular SSJ nothing more.

@shonen: What 18 said is hyperbole how would she know the levels of SSJ? Even Goku figured out ASSJ is not a transformation. He proved it to Gohan by forcing out the power output and easily ascending into a USSJ.

Also, he knew SSJ2 was the true predecessor after Gohan's brief transformation.

Again, what proof do you have that they would learn of this? Goten and Trunks saw a SSJ3 and wanted to quickly learn how to become one. Since the ASSJ is a branch of the regular SSJ it does not tie with the other ascended forms and thus irrelevent in their path to a SSJ3. You must access SSJ2 in order to obtain SSJ3, not a branched off version of the first.

The link you gave proved my point, it is only surpassing the limitations of the regular SSJ nothing more.

"BEYOND" or "ULTRA" SUPER SAIYAN (USSJ)

("ichi-dankai no henshin;" transformations of the first stage)