Character Analysis Battle 1 : Saber VS Skarr/WWH VS Alita

Topic started by SMXLR8 on Feb. 22, 2013. Last post by SMXLR8 1 year, 5 months ago.
Post by Dream (7,418 posts) See mini bio Level 20
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Alita is, quite frankly, faster than Saber by quite a margin.

Proof please? Saber's top movement speed is calced at about Mach 15 with at least double that for reaction speed.

Not to mention Alita can easily trick and/or distract Saber with Astral Doppelgangers

This sounds like something you're pulling out of your ass considering Alita's abilities in combat involve either melee or plasma manipulation with her Imaginos Body giving her greater abilities such as regeneration and the ability to perform and resist hacking, but nothing that involves astral projection.

Anything metal can become a weapon at Alita's discretion with her Nano-Corrosion.

And yet again, we exaggerate. Nanotech in the world of Alita involves hacking anything electronic and fucking up biological and mechanical beings on the atomic level with it, not controlling metal.

Avalon can give Saber higher defenses and great regen, but it doesn't help if there's nothing left to come back from.

Avalon guards against all attacks from the physical plane of existence, essentially making Saber invincible to all of Alita's attacks. It also reflects enemy attacks back at whomever targets Saber. Avalon's a much more potent defense than a mere barrier.

Post by ReiKai (3,510 posts) See mini bio Level 10

 Proof please? Saber's top movement speed is calced at about Mach 15 with at least double that for reaction speed.


Alita in Tuned Body is Mach 5+. Alita in Imaginos 1.0 is Mach 20+. Imaginos 2.0 is double that. Currently Alita is in 2.1 and still evolving. Currently she would be over Mach 50+ and, depending on conditions, could achieve a move at super-luminal speed, like Toji had when Zekka juiced him and fired him at Anomaly. Such a thing does require specific conditions to be met. 
 
Imag2.0 Alita effectively performed brain surgery on Zazie, countering tens of thousands (or 20,000+) energy waves rebounding within Zazie's skull at speeds in excess of Mach 5. Each wave required a specific counter-wave to negate it and all of it had to be done almost instantly to keep her head from exploding.



This is made possible by the quantum link Alita possesses with Melchizedek through the Fata Morgana, giving her near immeasurable ability to process information (roughly 9 days inside the systems conversing with the Jupiter Super Computer and Arthur roughly translated to 2-3min in Real Time)
 

This sounds like something you're pulling out of your ass considering Alita's abilities in combat involve either melee or plasma manipulation with her Imaginos Body giving her greater abilities such as regeneration and the ability to perform and resist hacking, but nothing that involves astral projection.

This stems from the martial arts portion of the series and revolves back to earlier points in the original series. Fighters like Jashugan and Alita herself could sense and feel Chi, and could use it to attack the weakest point in an opponent, as well as gauge strength and sense things within their surroundings. As for Alita's Astral Projections, they are a projection of her Will, her Intent. 
 
Caerula Sanguis had momentarily been bewildered by it when she felt she cut Alita's head in half and believed that she had, only to discover that what she had actually killed was Alita's Intent. Jack Jerambo (the reporter/commentator for the ZOTT questioned why Caerula attacked the air over Alita and sheathed her sword as if she had won).



Sechs would do something later against Zekka and the Jovians machine in their matches and created Plasma Decoys. Later, Taraba would remark about Alita's skill in entering a state of Mental Emptiness, which makes it almost impossible to read her position and tricks the mind. It seems a more perfected state over the Astral Decoys.


And yet again, we exaggerate. Nanotech in the world of Alita involves hacking anything electronic and fucking up biological and mechanical beings on the atomic level with it, not controlling metal.

A nanotech solution turned a moon into an ocean of nanomachines. Alita can use Nano-Corrosion to affect both technology and metals, and had done so sending them back through the Jupiter Wormhole in her chest to attack the orbital ring around Jupiter and would later merge with the Onion Frame of Ketheres and restructure it to create Plasma Wings in order to change its trajectory and prevent it from colliding with the Moon Colonies. It also overtook Tunguska who was designed to be immune to nanomachines.
 

Avalon guards against all attacks from the physical plane of existence, essentially making Saber invincible to all of Alita's attacks. It also reflects enemy attacks back at whomever targets Saber. Avalon's a much more potent defense than a mere barrier.

And has it ever blocked plasma? Soliton waves? Electromagnetic abilities? A gentle touch that releases kinetic energy into the body and destroys your internals? What you are suggesting is, of course, a NLF.
Post by Dream (7,418 posts) See mini bio Level 20
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Alita in Imaginos 1.0 is Mach 20+. Imaginos 2.0 is double that. Currently Alita is in 2.1 and still evolving. Currently she would be over Mach 50+

How are you coming to those conclusions when a certain other wiki calced her top speed for her first Imaginos body to be at about Mach 17 and the second at Mach 23?

As for Alita's Astral Projections, they are a projection of her Will, her Intent.

Judging from the scans, they appear to function similar to the Zanzoken technique used in Dragon Ball to distract foes and then Alita following up with an attack while the foe's distracted. While I can picture the technique throwing Saber off since it would be unfamiliar to her, it would be hard for Alita to get in a sneak attack afterward thanks to Saber's instincts allowing her to sense incoming attacks.

A nanotech solution turned a moon into an ocean of nanomachines. Alita can use Nano-Corrosion to affect both technology and metals, and had done so sending them back through the Jupiter Wormhole in her chest to attack the orbital ring around Jupiter and would later merge with the Onion Frame of Ketheres and restructure it to create Plasma Wings in order to change its trajectory and prevent it from colliding with the Moon Colonies. It also overtook Tunguska who was designed to be immune to nanomachines.

Even so, I fail to see how this ability is relevant for the battle.

And has it ever blocked plasma? Soliton waves? Electromagnetic abilities? A gentle touch that releases kinetic energy into the body and destroys your internals?

Considering all the attacks you list involve interaction with the physical realm, they wouldn't get around Avalon at all.

What you are suggesting is, of course, a NLF.

So says the fool who likes wanking about Light Hawk Wings being far powerful than they really are. The point I was trying to make is that only more hax abilities such as reality warping or attacks that can affect multiple dimensions (Avalon being limited in its protection up to six dimensions) could effect the sheathe. Alita's methods of attacks aren't gonna cut it here.

Post by ReiKai (3,510 posts) See mini bio Level 10

How are you coming to those conclusions when a certain other wiki calced her top speed for her first Imaginos body to be at about Mach 17 and the second at Mach 23?

I don't generally go by the Wikis and they were pulling that from the original Manga when Desty Nova explained the Imaginos with the Accelerator could allow Alita to move at mach 17.5. However, this event is little more than a "Dream" that Alita's brain may be having, because those things never happened. The beginning of Last Order completely retconned it.
 
And their calcs aren't close for stopping the verschlag's running through Zazie's head. 20k+ invisible waves node wider than, say, a molecule moving at Mach 5+ (so between Mach 5-10) rebounding within a space no more than 6-7in across, and they all had to be taken care of individually and simultaneously. It would take less than a fraction of a second for One wave to bounce from point to point in Zazie's head, and there are at least 20k of them. Mach 23 wouldn't come close to what is needed to stop them all in the time allotted. 
 
If Alita only moved at Mach 5, she'd only get two at a time (one with each hand) within that fraction of a second. Four if you doubled that, and 8 if you doubled it again. That would be mach 20. Assuming it takes 1/1000th of a second to stop 8 waves, in 1sec she would only get 8000 of them with at least 12000 remaining. If she has 1sec to get the job done, she needs to strike more than 20thousand times within that timeframe. And that's over Mach 40.
 

Judging from the scans, they appear to function similar to the Zanzoken technique used in Dragon Ball to distract foes and then Alita following up with an attack while the foe's distracted. While I can picture the technique throwing Saber off since it would be unfamiliar to her, it would be hard for Alita to get in a sneak attack afterward thanks to Saber's instincts allowing her to sense incoming attacks.

It's not like zanzoken at all. Zanzoken is a speed-based technique which uses high bursts of speed instantly to create after-images designed to confuse opponents with multiple images of the user. Astral Projections are wholly different as they are not speed based and are, as said, Projections of the users Will and Intent. As such it can be seen as, like Taraba said, a Manipulation of the Mind.
 

Even so, I fail to see how this ability is relevant for the battle.

What generally makes up technology, circuit boards and the like? Metals and Plastics. As such, in-organic substances can be controlled, changed and altered by Alita's nano-corrosion. Which means, depending on the Environment, she could turn the whole field against Saber. It doesn't just affect computers and chips. Afterall, such things are encased within metals as Cases to protect them and have no functionality except as such and Alita still changed the metal platings of both the Onion Frame and sections of the Jupiter Ring.
 
If Saber's armor weren't more of a spiritual thing, Alita could use it to impale her by making it jagged with spikes. Like Beetle Juice in the movie, only in reverse.
 

So says the fool who likes wanking about Light Hawk Wings being far powerful than they really are.

That's a wholly different matter which, btw, LHW operate beyond the 12th Dimension and exist outside of the Multiverse as a whole. As such, nothing that exists within the Multiverse could affect them since they exist outside of everything. And Tenchi's comes from Kami-Tenchi (aka TOAA), whose name literally translates to "God of Heaven and Earth". You can't really compare the two.
 


The point I was trying to make is that only more hax abilities such as reality warping or attacks that can affect multiple dimensions (Avalon being limited in its protection up to six dimensions) could effect the sheathe. Alita's methods of attacks aren't gonna cut it here

I, however, have not seen this to be true. Mind you I've only read the manga, watched the anime (Not Fate/Zero, but I'll get to that) and the UBW movie. Nothing about Avalon was ever stated as such, thus it's possible only to be in the game, which of course requires verification and proof. However, still stating it "stops all physical attacks" without the necessary evidence to back it would place it as a NLF. It's the same as saying she can tank a universe buster and yet never having done so.
Post by SMXLR8 (7,088 posts) See mini bio Level 16
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@ReiKai: @Dream: so who is right ?

Post by Fehafare (9,059 posts) See mini bio Level 13

@SMXLR8: Dream given that ReiKai tends to wank every damn series he ever debates for.

The only thing that's a saving grace for him that he wanks really awesome series like Berserk, Bastard or in this case BAA.

Post by CerusSerenade (2,556 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Avalon works by putting the user in a completely different world which is isolated from the outside world, much like a reality marble. Unless Alita can break through dimensions, she can't touch Saber while she's in it, and she will only harm herself if she tries.

Post by Dream (7,418 posts) See mini bio Level 20
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@Fehafare: Hence why we have this thanks to the guy.

Regrettably, he's also a Tenchi Muyo fan, as I am.

Post by ReiKai (3,510 posts) See mini bio Level 10
@CerusSerenade said:

Avalon works by putting the user in a completely different world which is isolated from the outside world, much like a reality marble. Unless Alita can break through dimensions, she can't touch Saber while she's in it, and she will only harm herself if she tries.

That's a conclusion I had been coming to myself. In which case it comes down to whose stamina lasts the longest. In which case, Alita wins as hers is limitless.
 
@Dream said:

@Fehafare: Hence why we have this thanks to the guy.


Really? Because I thought it was the FormerCrimsonKing who had argued that Kyo could beat the Silver Surfer and would maliciously debate for SDK regardless of who it was against, even if it was a complete and utter stomp.@Fehafare said:

@SMXLR8: Dream given that ReiKai tends to wank every damn series he ever debates for.

And yet you can't deny actual evidence and scans being provided. And since I've provided that in ample supply, you really have no cause to complain.
Post by Dream (7,418 posts) See mini bio Level 20
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@ReiKai: Your problem is that in many instances you debate, you tend to exaggerate with feats and calcs for titles that interest you, hence why me and many folks don't take you seriously.

Post by ReiKai (3,510 posts) See mini bio Level 10
@Dream said:

@ReiKai: Your problem is that in many instances you debate, you tend to exaggerate with feats and calcs for titles that interest you, hence why me and many folks don't take you seriously.

You can repeat that line to just about any and every debater on any forum about any subject matter. In other words, it's no different from the rest of you people. So there's no reason to act like I'm special!
Post by Fehafare (9,059 posts) See mini bio Level 13

@Dream said:

@Fehafare: Hence why we have this thanks to the guy.

Regrettably, he's also a Tenchi Muyo fan, as I am.

Lol, funny enough that's what i had in mind and wanted to post it but i was lazy. Wonder why they removed the Sephy-chan picture.

@ReiKai: As Dream said, you take a feat or something and exaggerate to get things and stats for characters others wouldn't even dream of. In short your logic is mostly flawed when it comes to that and you can't say that to any member on any forum, having different view points is one thing they can be debated and in the realm of possibility, on the other hand what you try to pull is just BS.

Post by ReiKai (3,510 posts) See mini bio Level 10
And yet many of you have made outrageous and grievous exaggerations many times before. So, again, nothing is any different from the rest of the group. And never you mind that you had asked for Proof of Alita's abilities and such here and I provided that proof despite your claiming that I was exaggerating.
 
And if you want to Disprove that Alita is Mach 40+ for whatever reason, than take the Evidence, or go read the series and discern this through Logic for yourselves, instead of relying on things like Wiki and OBD. It's much better than simply claiming I'm exaggerating her and then not doing anything to prove that.
 
After all, it's what I and others were doing with the Death Battle review on Goku's abilities. Nimbus is 1.5 and Goku was Mach 9.5 on Snake Way? Bakero. Nimbus flying from Kurin's Tower to where the Z-fighters were fighting in 10min puts it around Mach 80. You know, proving things like that by actually studying the DBZ World Map in comparison over an actual world map of Earth to measure distances and, provided time based between the Manga and Kai anime, can give quite a clear picture of distance and time traveled, thus providing a measure of speed.
 
Also if Goku had been going at least Mach 1 on snake way, and if the Road was 1mil km, he would've completed the run in roughly 815hrs, or 34 days if he ran straight without resting. You can double that time to account for sleeping half the day each day, so 68 days, or about 7weeks. That's little over 2months. It took Goku six months to get there. Which would indicate that the actual Road is 3xlonger than the projected distance, and that the distance of Snake Way wasn't referring to the Road but the distance between the Check-in Station and North Kai's planet, aka the 1mil km remark.
 
Heh, just a lil more on that. Distance between Kame House and where Raditz landed is roughly 5164mi. Goku was on the Nimbus and Piccolo was flying. If we followed that the Numbus only traveled at mach 1.5 it would've taken them 4 1/2hrs to get there. Instead they arrived in less than 20min. If it only took them 20min, means they were moving at a rate a little over Mach 23. So, even if people claimed my distances are only half correct (which means claiming DBZ Earth is 1/2 the size of the actual Earth), then that's still Mach 11.5 before training for the Saiyans.
Post by Dream (7,418 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Moderator

@Fehafare: They took down a number of the user profiles in the wiki a while back due to getting complaints about insulting those who either caused problems in the forums or are strongly biased for particular titles. Fortunately, I have a link to Raigen's old profile via Wayback Machine, with Sephiroth picture intact. :p

@ReiKai: While there will be some things that I will disagree with from those particular sources, they still cover facts and feats for a large number of fictions with fans than what is usually covered here on Vice since many matches in this forum revolve around characters from shounen anime titles and at least gives you a sense of the capabilities of characters from particular titles you may not be familiar with. You haven't exactly had a stellar track record of being a credible debater in many instances considering either my knowledge or having to consult folks on OBD to make sure you're not full of hot air.

Post by ReiKai (3,510 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Which boils down to a personal opinion of my debating skills over the actual facts. And that's taking into comparison things that were Then to things that are Now. Heck I still remember it was almost 10yrs ago when I got banned from CBR because I said Loki (Marvel) beats Superman, because Supes is vulnerable to magic and Loki is all about Magic and could at least tangle with Thor, whom is pretty much Supes' equal in physical stats.
 
Ahh the memories...But either way, we can grate forever about my stubbornness. I've already done further checking on Saber's Avalon. The Anime/manga and other media versions don't measure up to the visual novel (aka game version) of it., so I've already conceded that Alita can't bypass it. But there's still nothing Saber can do to hit her, and if it boils down to stamina, then Alita's the only one of the two with a boundless power source.
 
And despite my unwillingness to bend, it's still preferable to a debate than with the Blind who fervently believe Goku can beat Galactus. And no I don't mean you two. We're all well aware of those that pull those kinds of ridiculous stunts. I have my standards and I stick to them.
 
Either way, Hulk pretty much kills everyone anyway.
Post by SMXLR8 (7,088 posts) See mini bio Level 16
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@ReiKai: so about my question do you think that gally can hurt hulk or someone with hulk genes?

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