Arcueid Brunnestud vs Gilgamesh

Topic started by willyvereb on Dec. 4, 2009. Last post by willyvereb 4 years, 6 months ago.
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
Arcueid Brunnestud, the White  Moon Princess of the Vampires vs King of Heroes, Gilgamesh.  The main powerhouses of their respective stories.
Who would win?
 
Conditions:
-Gilgamesh has an excellent Master for prana supply and he's much like he was in Fate/Zero(for the ones only knowning of Fate/ Stay Night, it means he's colder, a bit more serious and a bit better physically)
-Arcueid has her full power(thanks to Altrouge and Roa she lost it to 30%, but theorise now that she regained to full 100%)
-Both have some knownledge of each other by vaguely their abilities.
-They have a bit of time to prepare and to plan.
-No plot armor and plot-inducted stupidity, though their CIS still remains.
 
 "This is the end, King of Heroes!"
 "This is the end, King of Heroes!"
     
      

"Hah! So you finally have shown yourself, freak!"
"Hah! So you finally have shown yourself, freak!"
      
      
     

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
So let's discuss!
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@willyvereb: isn't this the ever so hotly debated battle of nasu-verse, and later on done in Battle Moon Wars act 3?
Post by Nerx (13,843 posts) See mini bio Level 12
Damn, this is hard... some dudes even claim that Gil is tougher
 
but I doubt that he can survive a moon dropped on his head
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17

@cfatalis: Exactly. And that's why we should discuss it.
According to Nasu 30% Arc would lose to Gilgamesh. That's why I included the 100% one. Though with her personality remained which means she isn't as level headed and machine-like. Which is also an advantage and disadvantage in fight...depends on situation.
@Nerx: It was just an illustration in BMW, but in reality only Crimson Moon the great grand daddy of Arc was able to pull out such a feat...though thanks to Zelretch without success.
And many ppl states that Enuma Elish at full power is a planet-wrecking attack:p
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@willyvereb: it cut reality , supposedly
Post by Nerx (13,843 posts) See mini bio Level 12
@cfatalis: Didn't Arcueid supposedly kill of all the other unseen true ancestors as well?
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@Nerx: well yes
Post by Nerx (13,843 posts) See mini bio Level 12
@cfatalis: That is a large feat that goes against Gilga unless those are merely fodder m but gilga has his own Epic
Post by James_Marcus (6 posts) See mini bio Level 3

You can't be serious! You can't be serious at all! Is this a joke? Gilgamesh is no match for a 100% Arcueid lol. Maybe he can defeat a 30% Arc, I know that. Arcueid draws her power from the world, the stats of a 30% Arc without back up from the planet is the same as an average servant(pure stats wise, not counting noble phantasm). Even though Gilgamesh has the means to defeat a 30% Arc, Arcueid's strenght, speed and endurance will always be superior to him thanks to the world. But a 100% Arc? ha ha, that's like making a thread about Gilgamesh vs Crimson Moon. 100% Arc is more than 3 times more powerful than 30% Arc. Gilgamesh will die in less than a second, 100% Arcueid = Crimson Moon in terms of raw power. 100% Arc can kill all the Fate cast together in less than a minute
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
@James_Marcus: Same with Gilgamesh. It was stated that if he were even a bit of serious in the Fourth Holy Grail War he could've finished the whole war in a single day by eliminating every Servant. Well, even if they would gang up on him.
 
Gilgamesh has a personal spaceship, more than thousand magical weapons, countless magical shields and to comment a collection of exceptionally good wines.:p
He's the Doradaemon of the Nasuverse.
Not to mention his personal favourite, Ea is "the sword ripped the World appart", an anti-world class weapon which condenses air to such extreme it distorts even time and space in it's path, creating a fake layer of it.
I do wonder how can Arcueid ever counter such an attack. Also in contrast with Arcueid Gilgamesh is a quite good strategist who can measure the opponents' strenght easily(though he fails sometimes when unexpected variables took place, like Shirou's RM, Saber's Avalon or Sakura's quicker awakening...He does mistakes, but only when something really unexpectable happens). 
 
And while Arcueid isn't half-bad in battle, she has self-admittedly a poor imagination(which limits her Marble Phantasm too a bit) and can be lured in, especially if ancient unknown weapons of war are raining down on her like hell.  Difference in physical ability isn't much of a problem as it wasn't against Berserker. Gilgamesh not only can shoot out his weapons or use them, but materialize them almost anywhere as he did few times in FSN and did a bit more in Fate/Zero. He can even surround an enemy with swords, attacking it from every direction if he wants to. Also every weapon he uses are actually a Noble Phantasm with some kind of special power which he can use. For example his warp-scythe, which makes dodging the attack near-impossible, his freezing sword  etc... All of them are being strong mysteries enhanced with ancient magics which Arcueid can't counter like she does with the modern ones.
 
Perhaps he can underestimate Arcueid too. I included the condition of them knowing each other a bit and knowing very vaguely each other's abilities. If Gil lets his guard down he's ripped to shreds by her for sure. But same for Arc. If she walks into Gil's trap she's screwed. I give the Gil-Arc fight 60% chance to end with Gil winning, and so 40% with Arc winning. A statement which is backed up with the Word of God (Kinoko Nasu) who states Gil would win because Gaia only always gives Arc enough power to be just enough to destroy her opponent...and it's prone to exclude few things from the calculation, like Gil's collection of Noble Phantasms. It means while Gil has the power of say two Heroic Spirits, his battle potential at least equals 10 of them.
 
Also it's a kind of overstatement to call Arcueid as powerful as Crimson Moon. Crimson Moon's eyes categorized by the noble color of rainbow(instead of gold like Arc's) and also CM had the handicap of his powers being restricted on Earth. More he used his powers the more the world tried to crush him as a distortion to it's order as him being originated from the Moon instead of the Earth. Also CM could use his powers full well as he probably didin't lack in terms of imagnation like Arc. In short: In battle potential 100% Arc maybe matches CM, but not in actual power.
Post by James_Marcus (6 posts) See mini bio Level 3

Gilgamesh can beat a 30% Arc but even then, the fight will not be one sided. But against a 100% Arc there won't even be a fight, she is the most powerful being on earth, her power is on match with the Types. 100% Arc is a lot, and I mean a lot, more faster than 30% Arc. Gilgamesh won't have the time to use his weapons at all. I am almost sure Gilgamesh won't even be able to see where Arc moves considering her speed, and it doesn't matter how much weapons he has, if Arcueid touches him he is finished, even a 30% Arc will kill him if she catches him. Gilgamesh can't fight against an almost Type creature. And Nasu only said that Gilgamesh can defeat a 30% Arc, he never mentioned 100% Arc anywhere, if someone asks him that question, he'll probably laugh at them. And i am sure that a 100% Arc will be able to easily dodge and get past the GoB and kill Gilgamesh in a blink, even the Berserker from Fate Zero was able to grab a weapon and deflect the other swords thrown at him. And Gilgamesh won't be able to use Ea, he has to summon the sword call its name and charge it, of course he will be dead before that, it doesn't matter how much weapons he has, he won't be able to use them. Please get real, Gilgamesh can't win. Now you are going to tell me that Gilgamesh can kill ORT, right?

Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@James_Marcus: errr he is saying that gil can beat arc, not an aristoteles where did you get that idea?
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
@James_Marcus: Gilgamesh was nowhere serious even in  Fate/Zero. When he is serious he uses various tactics, instead of strategies. Like when he was about to defeat Saber after a second by not only bringing out his Noble Phantasms but actually using them at the bridge scene. Also he has Vimana. That ship itself is rumored to have  something an equivalent of 
 Vimana. A large spaceship which can even travel at the speed of his thoughts. If you watch closely you notice in the middle the small thing which is supposed to be the throne where he's sitting.
 Vimana. A large spaceship which can even travel at the speed of his thoughts. If you watch closely you notice in the middle the small thing which is supposed to be the throne where he's sitting.
tactical nuke and many other weapons. Against Berserker he was extremely arogant and when he attacked him with Noble-Phantasmised F-15 he used magical shields from GoB to block the his attacks and summoned swords from the GoB around Berserker to corner him. Also despite the difference in size Vimana was a way faster than Berserker's Enhanced F-15(which could fly at the speeds about Mach 3-4 and making impossible maneuvers). Also it means Gil can throw his swords from GoB at incredible speeds. I believe Mach 2 or more is his maximum. He just likes to hold back that capacity too. 
 
Perhaps Gil usually has a fatal problem. He's a way too arrogant to acknowledge the fact the strategy he thought out before is faulty and he needs to use a different method. He usually is a way too inflexible. 
 
But that can change with a powerful opponent like 100% Arc. If not then he has little chance to defeat her as he would just stand in one place and bombard her leisurely instead of actively doing something. But I believe after learning a thing or two about her, like the rumors, her title and else he probably would be at least as serious with her as he was with Saber at the beginning.  Defeating the rumored Princess of True Ancestors, knowing her possessing a Marble Phantasm and knowing her being the most powerful vampire.
 
So it all depends on how he would react to Arc. If he can get a bit more serious then he can win, but if not then Arc curbstomps him. But I disagree that it's the matter of Arc getting close or not. Arc can manifest her Marble Phantasm to defeat him. It has a certain range. Although maybe she can't as she won't be able to imagine something to defeat such strong ancient constructs and also because of her preference of melee. That's why I stated that she isn't Crimson Moon as he would be even able to outsmart Gil. Arc would probably use her Marble Phantasm as a support ability and for protection. Also we tend to forget while Arc has good knowledge about magics and many things she lacks the practical knowledge of fighting as she almost always fought against severely weaker opponents. She isn't like Zero Berserker or even Berserker who has intense weapon and fighting knowledge with skills barely matchable to anyone. Also while it isn't his strongest point as a Heroic Spirit, Gilgamesh himself is rather skilled in fighting and the use of weapons. He isn't proficient and accustomed to any weapon(maybe with the exception of Ea), but he can still fight quite well with it. While still holding back and smiling he held out much better against Saber, FSN's most skilled fighter than Archer who has the help from the memories of his projections and he was fighting with a  handicapped (by a Command Spell) Lancer. Well as Shirou stated skill has little use against such monstrous differences in physical abilities. But still Gilgamesh isn't crazy enough to let Arc close. I predict a Gilgamesh vs Berserker fight with a much much greater scale where Gilgamesh is flying constantly around on Vimana, spraying swords everywhere she goes and trying to bind her with various special Noble Phantasms. No matter how fast Arcueid is, she can't match the speed of Vimana which also a flying machine. I believe Arc can fly some way, but I doubt she can do it as well as her running. Her best bet against such an opponent is somehow making him exhaust his magical supplies. But even such a crazy fight like the F-15 vs Vimana didn't leave Gilgamesh low on magic I believe it would take an extremely long time. Also there's quite a chance Gilgamesh being prepared against a strategy like that.
Post by James_Marcus (6 posts) See mini bio Level 3

So you are saying Gilgamesh can defeat Archetype Earth with his space ship? that wouldn' be a fair fight, but I still think Arcueid 's Alt Nagel will be able to reach and destroy his space ship. And you are treating Arcueid as if she were stupid when she is easily more intelligent than any human being (including Gilgamesh, who used to be half human) her IQ must be 250 at least, considering the True ancestors used to be the perfect humans and Arcueid is the most perfect of them all. As I was saying, Archetype Earth is even more powerful than Crimson Moon, because she has full Earth support while Crimson Moon doesn't, because he is from the Moon and his powers get weaker in the planet Earth. 100% Arcueid is more powerful than a God, her power is beyond human comprehension even for an Heroic Spirit, as I said before her power is on match with the Types. And it doesn't matter if Gilgamesh kills her with his space ship, because the planet will never let her die. In Roa's MBAA ending, he kills her with the MEoDP and since she didn't had enough power to revive by herself, the planet brings her back at full power, and this is exactly what would happen, the power of the planet the power of Archetype Earth is almost unlimited.  
 
And as you can see from the Arcueid vs Roa fight in Tsukihime, she doesn't play nice when she feels threatened, she killed Roa with her Marble Phantasm without give him time to react, one of her favorite phrases is "you must kill your oponent as quickly as posible without give him the chance to retaliate". If she were fighting against Gilgamesh she would get even more serious than when she fights against the DA. The odds of Gilgamesh winning against a full powered Arc are slim at none. Maybe he can defeat her with his space ship. But the only way he can kill Arcueid for good is by destroying the planet, and I don't think he will like to stay in space.  
 
And even if you are saying that Arcueid doesn't know about Gilgamesh Noble Phantasms because she is way younger than he is, the world knows everything, the world knows about every Noble Phantasm. And Archetype Earth's knowledge = the knowledge of the world. If 30% Arc grabs Gilgamesh, he will be reduced to a pulp, let alone a 100% Arc, she will just deflect any ammount of weapons thrown at her, dash right through Ea and split Gilgamesh in half with her bare hands. That's why, if you are saying Gilgamesh can defeat Archetype Earth then you are implying he can defeat the other Types as well
  
It clearly seems that: 
1. You are underestimated Arcueid's power 
2. You are overestimating Gilgamesh abilities 
I am going to say both of them are right, and besides, why hadn't you raised this topic on Beast's Lair. The people in there know a lot about Type-Moon, I am sure they can give you the correct answer 
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
Now THATS a huge fanwank. Arcueid isn't the Type of Earth or anything. She might be eligible for the ArchetypeEARTH title, but it still doesn't mean she's indestructible. She can be killed and if killed then she should stay dead for a while. As usual the endings in Melty Blood doesn't make much sense...like when they pit R.Shki against Archetype EARTH in her ending. As if R.Shiki would have even a percent of chance of defeating her.
 
 And I don't know where you got that Arcueid is getting the full knowledge of the planet, but in Tsukihime she mentions she knowledgable from reading a lot of books. Usually after awakening the first thing she does to grab a newspaper and get quite a few books and learn everything needed to know about the new era she's awakened into. With that kind of logic I can brag about Ea being a sword capable of destroying the whole universe or even multiverse as it's name suggest. Arguably Ea is a weapon which can defeat any being in Nasuverse. Perhaps I won't say more as it's as stupid to argue about such thing as mentioning "Goku would curbstomp him/her" in a battle thread. 
 
Also I have to mantion Arcueid's Marble Phantasm can create only something which is possible to exist in the nature. In that sense it's more limited than a Reality Marble which can oppose the nature, but perhaps the Marble Phantasm can create anything the user imagines with that condition while the Reality Marbles can only do one certain thing. Still that's the part where Arcueid's admittedly poor imagination plays a role. In Tsukihime she couldn't defeat Roa in her own route because she manifested an overwhelming pressure of air at the range above his ankle. But Roa was in such a good condition he managed to regenerate from that small part and defeated Arc. Perhaps this isn't the indicator of her power as she was severely weakened and perhaps in her 30% state, but if she wanted to she could've used her Marble Phantasm better and defeated Roa with a similar attack. And it's from the original game, not Melty Blood. Even if Nasu said okay to it it isn't his work.  So she has great power, but her "skill" to use it is kind of lacking.
 
Well, you can say the same to Fate/Zero a bit as it was written by Urobuchi Gen, but Nasu did it's skeleton beforehand and always he had the final word on every chapter. So it's more of an official statement. But anyways let's go back to the previous topic. 
 
So while Arcueid is an extremely good learner her own experience and practical skill is lacking. She's reckless and always tries to defeat her opponent with a single overwhelming strike. So if her opponent somehow survives it she gets surprised and it usually means her own defeat. She lived for 800 years, but her actual experience of life is at about 1 year at the start of Tsukihime if I remember well. Maybe a bit more, but still she's seriously lacking in real experiences. She isn't dumb, but naive and she isn't weak, but clumsy. She only knows of simple fighting methods as with her overpowering abilties she never has the need of more. The only area in battle she excels at is the magic. She can analyze and understand modern magics really well and she can protect herself against them. But the Noble Phantasms aren't modern magic and they are not even at the same scale in power as those. In short she can be trapped in or lured relatively easily. As it has happened with her both in every route of Tsukihime and even in Melty Blood.
 
You said she would just deflect any weapon thrown at her. Well, it might be true if they were normal weapons. But they're Noble Phantasm with varying special abilties. He can either detonate them, shoot out excalibur-like blasts from them or activate any other nasty effects. If anything Arcueid's Marble Phantasm is the only thing able to protect her from them. But Arcueid lacks in terms of imagination so more sinister effects can pass through even such defenses. Also I still doubt Arcueid can do anything against spaceship flying around kilometers from her. Her Marble Phantasm has a certain range and also she can't match Vimana's speed at all. In terms of power Arcueid is many times more powerful than Gilgamesh, but Gilgamesh has a much better battle potencial. He has a treasury which lets him take full armies and finish them off in seconds. On the top of it he has a mind-reading articraft which can let him know every single move his enemy would make. Of course he's a way too arrogant to use it most of the time but if he decides to use it then Arcueid has even less chance to win.
 
So in the end it all depends on how arrogant is Gilgamesh against a 100% Arc. It isn't about me underestimating Arc. She's like a prodigal child with immense power. She's strong, innovative and dangerous, but naive and too confident in her abilities. And of course not about overestimating Gil. He can do all that, but the question is whether he wouldn't be as arrogant to not use them. Afterall he's Gilamesh, Kinpika, King of Heroes, the Golden King, King of Kings, but most of all the King of Arrogance.:p
 
 
P.S.: I didn't start this at BL as I wanted to start this especially here. I took part in quite some VS threads in BL of course, but I wanted to start a battle thread especially here.
Post by James_Marcus (6 posts) See mini bio Level 3

Archetype Earth has the knowledge of the whole world, in Arcueid's MBAA path when she is talking to Dust of Osiris, Gaia takes control of her body to speak with Osiris, yes, Gaia has control over her as well, of course, the knowledge and wisdom of Gaia is unlimited because Gaia is the world, that's why I say Archetype Earth is not Arcueid anymore, with the wisdom of Gaia at her disposal the power and imagination of her Marble Phantasm will be unlimited. I am sure her Marble Phantasm will be able to protect a shield of wind to deflect any weapon thrown at her, and Gilgamesh weapons aren't perfect, for example Saber Excalibur is not the same as Gilgamesh Excalibur, Gilgamesh weapons are copies therefore they are not perfect, still, Gilgamesh Exacalibur might still Excaliblast, but its power is much weaker than the original. 
 
And you mentioned Crimson Moon a few comments ago, that Crimson Moon might be able to outsmart Gilgamesh. You know that Crimson Moon can take control of Arcueid's body whenever he feels like it, right? Or at least when the situation is needed, like in the orginal path of Melty Blood (Night of the Bloody Liar) Crimson Moon still exists in Arc's body. I don't think Crimson Moon is going to let anything happen to his vessel, he or Gaia will take over and crush Gilgamesh anyway. And the planet doesn't let anything happen to Arcueid because the planet doesn't have a Type creature to defend itself, that's why Arcueid plays that role, she is Archetype Earth and not Type Earth because Crimson Moon was used as a template when she was born.  
  
Roa's goal was not to kill Arcueid, he wanted Arcueid to become the almighty immortal she used to be. Arcueid can't be killed unless you destroy the whole world, Ciel say so:  
  
"They get their powers from the world itself. 
Therefore in order to kill them, a conceptual weapon with the power to kill the world is needed.
…… Of course, such a weapon does not exist.
So that means their 'death' cannot be caused by external factors." 
 
Gilgamesh is one of the greatest threats to the world, which is why Gaia will do everything in her power to kill him once and for all. And if Ea is so powerful as you are saying, how come Gilgamesh was killed by Saber in Fate Stay Night when Excalibur clashed against Ea? You don't seem to understand how destructive Archetype Earth's power is. In the chapter 56 of the Tsukihime manga, she destroyed an entire city just by raising her hand and shooting a massive energy blast (Dragon Ball style) And I am not saying Ea or Excalibut can't do that, I am just saying that Arcueid can easily overpower Ea or Excalibur with a single hand. And while I understand Gilgamesh is a great strategist because he has fought many battles in the past, his knowledge can't compare with Gaia's or Crimson Moon. 
 
All this leads to a single answer, without his space ship, he will definitely be killed.
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
@James_Marcus: The problem is that I stated in the beginning that Gilgamesh is fighting with Arc. Not with Gaia, nor with CM either. I didn't mention that Gilgamesh is fighting with Archetype EARTH as her existence is only just vaguely cannon. Gilgamesh's opponent is "just" our usual Arcueid, but with her full powers back.
And no, she weren't Archtype EARTH back then. And I don't see how they can explain the existence of Archetype EARTH canonically at all.
 
And I don't really want to comment to such thing but you're mixing up Archer-EMIYA and Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh's weapons are the original Noble Phantasms. He posseses weapons which later became Noble Phantasms or inspired others to make Noble Phantasms like them. They are at full power and of course original. The whole end of UBW is about the fight of Fake and Original.  Gilgamesh doesn't have Excalibur, but he has Merodach, a sword which was the model of Gram(the sword of the tree) which influenced the making of Calibum(the sword of the stone) which led to the making of Excalibur. Excalibur wasn't made by humans but fairies and by the will of humanity and the world.  Merodach possessed both Excalibur's blast-like attack and Calibum's focused attack. But it was perhaps inferior to Excalibur though stronger than Calibum.
 
And also it's funny you ask why Saber has won. She of course cheated.:p. Having the world's best form of protection(Avalon) to ward off Ea and using that confusion to land the finishing bow on Gilgamesh is something few can ever defend against. In the Excalibur vs Ea fight Saber always lost and only left alive because Gilgamesh was careful enough to only use Ea at reduced power. He didn't want to lose his new piece to his treasure(Saber). Or maybe you only watched the anime? It has many misleading scenes so it isn't a good reference material. 
 
And you're somehow right. Arcueid can't be killed. But she still can be defeated. Also there's a bit of chance that on Arcueid's defeat Altrouge takes over the role of hers, making her really disappear. Afterall I don't believe she's plotting to kill her if she knows that she can't be really killed. So there's a way to remove her permanently.
Post by James_Marcus (6 posts) See mini bio Level 3
Look, Archetype Earth does not exist as an individual character, Archetype Earth is just another name for Arcueid. They gave her that name in MBAA so they don' have to call her Princess Arcueid or 100% Arcueid, so of course she is canon. Roa kills her in his ending and the planet brings her back at full power, If you don't believe what I am saying I can prove it to you right away. In the sprites of the MBAA characters there is a small profile for each character in English. Even though you can't read them unless you rip the sprites, the profile is still there, if you still don't believe me just  check the official MBAA website and read it there if you understand Japanese, the text goes like this:  
 
Princess of a true ancestor. Prototype of ARCUEID.
The one which showed the Rank as the stellar sense of touch as the true origin of the most high degree of purity.
Not another character, but usual she and this she are the same one 
 
Also, do you honestly believe Arcueid would have lost if she have had her full power when fighting against Altrouge? 100% Arcueid is at least two time more powerful than Altrouge. After Arcueid drank Roa's blood, she had to use a large amount of power to supress her vampiric impulses, not to mention the power Roa already stole from her. I seriously doubt Altrouge is more powerful than a 40% Arcueid, Altrouge defeated Arcueid but she lost against Roa, and Roa's power is nowhere near as close as 100% Arcueid. Altrouge is half DA therefore she doesn't go insane if she drinks blood, that why she doesn't need to use power to supress her vampiric impulses (because she doesn't have them). And no, Crimson will never choose Altrouge over Arcueid, Altrouge is nothing but a half breed, while Arcueid is a True Ancestor of the most high degree of purity (and the closest copy of Crimson Moon, a lot more than Altrouge). 
 
And yes, I understand you said this thread is only about Gilgamesh vs Arcueid and not Gaia or Crimson Moon. But that isn't going to happen, Arcueid is always going to receive the help from Gaia, and Crimson Moon is not going to let anything happen to his host either. Also, I acknowledge that Ea is one of the most powerful weapons in the universe similar to Slash Emperor, and therefore it might be able to kill even Types, but death doesn't mean too much for Arcueid, she was able to revive after being killed by the MEoDP( who was death itself), and that is why even if she is killed by Ea she is going to regenerate herself or the planet is going to reboot her, Roa knew this all along, his goal was never to kill Arcueid, Roa became insane for her not only because she was the most beautiful woman he was ever going to lay eyes upon, it was because she was the perfect being, with a perfect immortality, in Roa's words "she is eternity", with that in mind, Roa's ending in MBAA will make perfect sense.
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
Another volley of fanwanks. It's been officially stated that Altrouge is stronger than Crimson Moon if we include her companions(especially Primate Murder). She has prophetic visions and can predict the future. She can always determine the time when a Dead Apostole Ancestor dies and so we always have a replacement for that post. In terms of power Altrouge roughly equals 100% Arc if we're talking about individual power. She's the reason behind Arcueid being depowered as she cut her hair pernamently, preventing her to completely control her powers(That's why she's 30%) and hold back her urge for blood. The debate starts to be irreasonable.
 
There never were a case in Melty Blood or Tsukihime where Crimson Moon's persona took over Arc's body. rue, she's the best candidate for Crimson Moon's ressurection, but until that certain ressurection she has her will all the time.
Also in Tsukihime or even in Melty Blood Gaia never took over Arc's will. Maybe she did with Archetype EARTH in Actress Again, but this is another reason to call her a different character than Arc.
 
And she weren't killed by MEoDP. Roa only possessed the fake imitation of MEoDP. He could end the life of living things while Shiki can end the existence of almost anything. MEoDP can kill Arc for sure...although not at full moon(except if Shiki kills the nature around him like he did in Ciel's route, cutting off Arc's source of power temporally). So Gaia can resurect her, except if somehow something manages to kill his existence.
 
You're seriously overrating Arcueid's abilties. She's really far from being as powerful as a Type.
Post by James_Marcus (6 posts) See mini bio Level 3

You are saying nonsense. Altrouge is not as strong as a full powered Arcueid! When Altrouge defeated Arcueid she had already drank the blood of Roa, she was weaker because she needed to supress her impulses after drinking blood, not because Altrouge cut her hair, where did you get that idea? Altrouge doesn't need to use any power to supress her vampiric impulses (because she doesn't have them) And the simple fact that she is half DA and not a pure TA will only make her weaker. And after Roa became a DA he wiped the floor with Altrouge, if we follow what you are saying the Original Roa would be stronger than a 100% Arc, which doesn't make any sense. You should think again about what you just said, because otherwise Roa would be stronger than Gilgamesh too. 
 
Did you read the dream scene in KT? the long haired Arcueid in that dream was indeed Arcueid's body but with the mind and personality of Crimson Moon, did you read the 7th and original path of MB? The Arcueid in the last part was Crimson Moon too, even Sion noticed that, you should be able to notice it too, because Crimson Moon's personality and way of speaking is completelly diferent from Arc's. In MBAA Gaia was the one speaking to Dust of Osiris at the end of Arc's path.
 
Roa's eyes are a kind of MEoDP too, they can see the life of living beings, they can still kill Arcueid, but of course, not forever. And I am not overrating Arcueid's abilities, she is almost as strong as a Type because she can count with the back up of the whole planet in contrast to some of the other Types like Crimson Moon, for example ORT will not be as strong in the planet Earth as it is in Mercury.
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