Archer(FSN) vs Uryuu Ishida(Bleach)

Topic started by willyvereb on May 19, 2010. Last post by katanalauncher 1 year, 6 months ago.
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
Here it comes. The battle amongst the two probably best known archers of anime.

In the red corner:

Archer the Counter GARdian. The legendary faker whose body made out of swords. He's a common guest of our arena and can account both victories and loses. How will he fare this time?
Archer the Counter GARdian. The legendary faker whose body made out of swords. He's a common guest of our arena and can account both victories and loses. How will he fare this time?

In the blue corner:

 The Quincy, Uryuu Ishida. He's not even half as old as his opponent but he already shows promise. Will his lack in experience hamper him or overcome it through talent? Let's find out!
 The Quincy, Uryuu Ishida. He's not even half as old as his opponent but he already shows promise. Will his lack in experience hamper him or overcome it through talent? Let's find out!


Conditions: 
  • The location is an empty urban area from fair distance between both participants.
  • Ishida can sense Archer's presence like he's having spirit energy.
  • Archer is in top condition with Rin's full magic supply at his disposal
  • This is a random encounter without prep time.
  • Regular battle without bloodlust. Although I guess they are perfectly fine killing each other anyways.
Post by Nerx (13,843 posts) See mini bio Level 12
@willyvereb: I wonder what Uryu possesses that could possibly counter UBW, and if it gets medium to close quarters then the Quincy is dead
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
@Nerx: Ishida has the advantage of speed and rate of fire. For all accounts he could possibly shoot at every single NP Archer sends to him. Also UBW needs time. 
It's funny but Archer is just as much cornered as Ishida at the same time.
It's quite even actually. Archer needs to seriously use his NP abilities for this.
I give Archer the slight upper hand though. Rho Aias can protect him for a while against the barrage and he has more battle experience with better tactics.
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@willyvereb: Rho aias
 
walk walk walk walk, okay i am close now, STAB, basically phalank strategy
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
@cfatalis: Well, while active Archer can't move with Rho Aias, neither summon other NPs. Also Ishida's barrage is borderline at the level of Rho Aias' endurance and using that shield takes quite a magic energy to use. All in all I doubt it would do much in the long run.
Although if Archer manages to cast UBW inside Rho Aias like Shirou did against Gil I believe he can turn the tide of battle. Of course only if Ishida doesn't use his magic-eating vibrosword to break the shield which might pass or weaken Rho Aias. There are plenty of counters. Of course, Archer as a master strategist and tactitican has twice as many as Ishida.:)
Post by paladin (1,192 posts) See mini bio Level 13
It depends:
  • If Archer can detect Ishida earlier then Hrunting may do the job. Broken Phantasms in general are enough to kill Ishida.
  • If Ishida can pull off a similar stunt like he did in against Mayuri he can break through Rho Aias easily and kill Archer in a single shot. I doubt he could do that though or willing.
  • If Archer pulls out UBW then Ishida has little chance to win. Although I doubt he would do except if really necessary.
  • If Ishida's Seele Schneider can affect magic, even more if it can disrupt it then even Archer's Rho Aias is useless.
  • If Ishida can trap Archer in Sprenger it's all over. Sprenger isn't a projectile but an explosion-like spell and as such Archer has no means to defend against it with Rho Aias.
 
In the end it depends on who pulls out their trump card sooner and how each fare against those. I put my confidence in Archer's skill and experience but it won't be an easy fight. Especially as Ishida can very well survive many attacks which would kill an average Servant.
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
i still stand by Archer considering he is a heroic spirit and have a load of experience against people more powerfull than himself
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
@cfatalis: Well, he has experience...against eldricht ambionations and in war. I doubt he faced many enemies with the speed like Ishida and regardless he had Alaya's backup at that time. It's quite different from that. But Archer is a fighting genius with a quite versatile though specialized ability. Anyways, what chances you give to Archer and Ishida each?
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@willyvereb: 60%-40%? 55%-45%? (for archer)
 
it won't go up to 50-50 though
Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Ishida's blade-arrow doesn't eat magic. It absorbs reishi in the atmosphere. It's different than the kinda power Archer uses. Also, Uryuu is not faster. I would say both are hypersonic. Unlike Uryuu, who creates a bow and arrows of pure spirit energy (aside from the special Quincy objects), Archer can create physical magical weapons by just imagining them. And if he gets off Unlimited Blade Works, which is the equivalent of a Reality Marble, Uryuu is infinitely screwed.
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
  @ReiKai: UBW is a Reality Marble. You meant Marble Phatasm? Not quite. Totally different from that. UBW is more like the multi-directional weapon barrage(with special abilities).
 Also Archer is one of the slowest servants in FSN. So far there's only two confirmed hypersonic fighters in Fate: Saber and Berserker. Especially the former. For Lancer the top dash speed was about 50-100m/s. Not quite reaches the sound barrier. Archer is definitely much slower(beaten by Rider's speed easily while she's under Lancer's).
 
Perhaps, Ishida's speed is a matter of grand question but he can definitely cross about hundred meters in split-seconds. Also if we add that inhumane rate he shoots his arrows...1200 shots per second. I am not exactly sure he couldn't shot down all of the swords Archer throws at him without much thought.
To be fair perhaps Archer is no slouch at tactics and tricks. He's sure to use some NP effects to confuse the Quincy and call the swords right near his opponent to leave no room to escape...Of course if he can pin down Ishida's location. The instant Ishida finds out how freely Archer could summon the weapons he's sure to not stop even a second. He has a somewhat good tactical sense too.
 
It wouldn't be an easy fight no matter how we see it.
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@willyvereb: wait weren't the fastest class was Lancer?
UBW rather than mutil directional barrage would be a more a giant summoning forge, where it had over material to be projected/made into weapon to it's user
Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Lancer's lack of speed doesn't mean anything. With Gae Bolg it's effectively instantaneous heart-piercing. Also, Archer's not slow, he just doesn't get so much screen time. Berserker is slow. Also, I don't recall Uryuu shooting 1200 arrows per second. I know he has a volley move that shoots 1000 arrows out, but not per second. Also, Rider's not so slow and she's especially fast when using Pegasus. Plus, Archer won't remain idle either. Despite Archer's class at being ranged, he's extremely effectively at close range, given he is Shirou's future self. And he can make exploding weapons/arrows as well.
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
@cfatalis: Agility stat doesn't equal the speed. For example Assassin was just barely faster than the reinforced Kotomine(70km/h). Lancer's fastest official speed was a sudden dash move when he crossed quite a distance in a second. Although it may be overdated as before Fate/Zero Saber being supersonic even in normal battle wasn't official.
 
Your description of UBW explains the mechanics well but in battle it's actually more like a great barrage of magic weapons coming from every possible direction.
Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Let's try not to go by stats since those don't mean much of anything. Also, Lancer's person speed is not an issue.Gae Bolg bends space and its effect is basically auto-heart strike. It hits you before the attack is even launched. Unless you can bend reality or have super-luck, Lancer's Gae Bolg is like an instant finishing move, and it drops a targets regen.
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@willyvereb: your description probably apply to the battle style of both shiro and archer, using as much weaponry as they can to overwhelm the target, if say a user who is proficient using a crushing style it would be rather different,no?
 
no,no it wasn't the stat that made me lancer was the fastest, it was the lore i think, like when i read this think about the advantages of a servant or something like that
Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
There's also Archer's visual abilities. His ability to see/sense things extends for miles so there's really no way for Uryuu to hide or set something up without Archer seeing it. And UBW is more than just an AoE weapon death, considering it was used to take out 5 of Berserker's lives despite the Godhand effect.
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
@ReiKai:  Let's see, with his debut battle Uryuu claims that his maximum is 1200 shots per second. And to prove it he beats an opponent with 175 shots/second rate quite easily while he intercept all of his projectiles. It is far from slow, really.
 
Gae Bolg isn't instanceous. It's just unavoidable the instant you get into its range(roughly 2 meters). It's a reverse of cause of effect. Instead of attack-pierced heart it goes pierced heart-attack. The piercing of heart has already determined and the movement of attack is just the effect. Also Lancer can throw Gae Bolg like an explosive and empowered missile with the speed of Mach 2.
Did you played with the Visual Novel? In UBW route Archer do get enough screentime to determine his power. He was beaten by Rider( although Rider uses her stone gaze in the end to be sure.) , defeated Caster easily(by dodging her barrage and surprising her twice), trashed by Gil( Although it was wounded already and it was semi intentional but he admitted he had no chance against him),  Put up a fight with Lancer( by using the old trick plus one to keep up with him, he eventually got defeated though), gave a ride to berserker( by killing him 6 times. It's a matter of constant debate how he could've done it. We never see it how. Probably with lots of wits and guts like usual.)
 
When he fought with Lancer they exchanged blows with about 15 hits a second. To note Archer was disarmed constantly and needed to recreate his weapons every single time. Lancer obviously had the upper hand in skill and speed. For speed we're unsure though a bit. Lancer was obviously magnitudes faster than him and Archer was faster than Assassin but we know nothing of his proper speed. Although it's sure well under the sound barrier. Archer fights with wits and courage, and his opponents are usually superior in power.
Post by willyvereb (5,914 posts) See mini bio Level 17
@cfatalis: Well, Now if I think about it Berserker wasn't supersonic either. His only official speed was as Dark Berserker with about 20 m/s or so.
Of course, it would be different with a different style. Although I think Archer's style is quite effective in itself.
@ReiKai:
In the VN Archer didn't use UBW against Berserker. That's why it's a constant debate. With UBW it's understandable why he could but without it it's kind of strange. Especially as Berserker even praised(in his thoughts) his fighting ability and would've spared Archer if not for the Mad Enchantment. God Hand negates any weapon until B class or so. In short B+ or more powerful weapons can pierce God Hand. You're right, it means Archer had at least 6 NPs with B+ stat to use. Quite interesting if we concern that only his Broken Phantasm trick was the only ability revealed to have such power. Well, maybe he used many kinds of Broken Phantasms...
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@willyvereb: Broken phantasm gives out plus one rank
 
so he only needs a B rank NP to use at berserker, easier if those phantasm were like 5 gae bolg copies
 (i am sure that there are many weapon whose function is instant kill, it's after all a desirable effect)
Archer/shirou style is rather effective against barrage or each other, or one sword user(conventional sword)
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