Aizen's army vs Madara's army

Topic started by nishi99 on Nov. 22, 2012. Last post by One_Piece_God 1 year, 6 months ago.
Post by sinxism (348 posts) See mini bio Level 9
Post by DBZ_universe (15,510 posts) See mini bio Level 17

@PrinceAragorn1: Poor Aizen... tho that wont happen no more!

Post by All_StarSupes (767 posts) See mini bio Level 10

If Aizen can place the 10 tails under KS his team can win, otherwise it's not going to be a pretty sight for team Aizen.

Post by shakyric_lawson (64 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@PrinceAragorn1:

Hello, my rebuke to your comment is ready. However, I can't post it for some reason... Maybe it too long, i'm not sure, but i'll keep trying.

If this comment actually loads i'm gonna be pissed.

Post by PrinceAragorn1 (157 posts) See mini bio Level 4

@shakyric_lawson: Cut it down in two posts.. it might help..

Post by shakyric_lawson (64 posts) See mini bio Level 6

PT) 1

@PrinceAragorn1:

^^ Only tagged you so you could see it since you agree with him... This isn't meant to provoke an argument GIRUGAMESH.

Sorry it took so long to do this. I take all advance classes in school so doing this through the week is often impractical, not to mention I have some new video games that have been demanding my attention, LOL. But I'm here now, so...

Juubi can create an infinite tsukuyomi? I don't think so. I think they said something more to the nature that his chakra can be used to make a tsukuyomi powerful enough to control the entire planet, which is not far fetched due to its massive chakra reserves, but once again, the Juuubi hasn't demonstrated any abilities pertaining to genjutsu. At least to my knowledge, so the Juubi forming illusions is out of the question entirely.

As for Itachi with Shishui's eye. Well that "would" be a problem except for one thing. He can only use it once every nigh decade. Danzo was able to put it through continuos use, ONLY because he had the cells of Hashirama, and even then, it required an impractical waiting time. Now what is I.T, I don't know what it stands for.

As for Barragon, you do realize that he was indeed able to counter her bankai with ease right. The first time, he aged her bankai and had absolutely 0 damage. I think you're referring to the second time she used her bankai, in which case he was essentially placed inside a small box and fired at from point blank range. And even then, the only injuries he got was a crack in his skull that made utterly no difference in his ability to fight whatsoever.

As for Gins use of bankai, theres a problem. Swords can pierce full-fledged tailed beast. Remember when Sasuke sliced one of the 8 tails tentacles? For some reason, full tailed beast seem to have the consistency of living flesh. All Gin needs is a scratch, and poison will do the rest. Also, Naruto may have had an insane healing factor, but so did Aizen, LOL. The only reason he survived was because the hogyoku literally wouldn't let him die. So if it pierces, it works.

1. Aizen still solo's, his complete hypnosis is beyond any Genjutsu so far in Naruto. IF YOU LOOK AT IT, he can control your five senses, PERMANENTLY. If anyone he's fighting even so much as look at his blade, including 10 Tails, its complete hypnosis. This enables him to do his #1 and most effective ability. Trolling. More on Aizen is at the bottom. BTW, Madara isn't a real problem. If it was ONLY him and his cronies, he'd be obliterated. However, if you want to pursue the subject of Madara's strength then you can, but until then i'll treat him as insignificant at best. After all, Barragon could handle him, as well as any of the top 7 espada.

Post by shakyric_lawson (64 posts) See mini bio Level 6
@PrinceAragorn1:  

2. It does move at those speeds, observe...

Here, Ichigo notes the speed of Gins Bankai... And he tells Ichigo that its 500 times the speed that was demonstrated earlier. Weather its 500X the speed of sound or just 500 times that speed doesn't matter to me really. The speed demonstrated by bleach characters is unrivaled in Naruto except for only the VERY FASTEST. (A, yellow flash, ect...) 500 times that speed is beyond impressive. But on to the point...

 Now, lets examine whats being said. Clearly Gin has lied to Aizen about something, which is expected, because he intended to kill him from the start. But whatever lie he told Aizen, whatever that is, we have no idea weather or not he was referring to the same thing he said to Ichigo. When he was talking to Ichigo, we know that he wasn't lying about the length of the blade, because Ichigo confirmed the many Km of his sword by referencing how he basically chopped katakura town in half. Its likely that the abilities he described to Ichigo are its true abilities. And that whatever he told Aizen had been exaggerated farther than what he told Ichigo. Either way, his sword is more destructive and moves much faster than all in Naruto, and the poison makes Sasori's look like it was invented by a child.

3. We were both impulsive with this statement. Allow me to clarify, my argument here was that Sharingon eye techniques won't work on Tosen. At least not the ones require you to look directly at him. Also, I didn't say he solo's, I said he solo's MOST with his bankai. Sasori, Hidan, Kukazu, Madara are some of the top of my head he could solo withease.

As for Kisame, the only senses he would have in Tosens bankai is touch. I doubt he's anywhere near Zaraki Kenpachi's level to counter it the way he did, whose faster and much stronger physically. The same goes for Kisame's sword too, which is alive. Because reishi is equal to chakra, the sword won't be able to even sense Tosen 'chakra/reishi" because in the Bleachverse, Tosen's bankai takes away your ability to sense spirit energy. Kisame's not putting him in a water prison if he can't see him. The water bubble won't work either because, Tosen could simply fly into the air if he needed to. The water bubble didn't demonstrate the ability to fly into the air, but Tosen can do so with ease to eascape.

However, who says he needs to use his Bankai, he can use his shikai to kill most everyone on the Madara's team...

He could use "cry" to put his enemies to sleep, and they would be at his and team Aizen's mercy.

He could then use his flying locust technique to rain swords on his enemies. What would Team madara do if they're sleep? Nothing. The only person resisting this technique (me being generous here) is the 10 tails and thats assuming he either can't hear or is immune to being put to sleep, LOL.

If its more destruction, then he could use his "release" to compensate, in which he gains abilities easily at Biju level in destruction. Its clear you underestimated Tosen. He may not be the strongest in the Bleachverse, but in the Narutoverse his abilities are perfect.

4. Stark: can easily dodge a tailed beast bomb. I mean easily. However, his wolves are perfect for the other characters. Especially in Deidara's case. Not only is he fast enough to easily avoid his explosions, but he could easily counter with the wolves. The flying abilities of bleach characters provide a HUGE advantage to team Aizen.

5. Barragon: As I said above, his abilities are perfect for this fight. Especially 10 tails, Madara and all other Susanoo users. Once again it seems as if its the Juubi to the rescue, seeing how no other could actually stop his powers. As for the Tbb, he has a special ability called GET THE FUCK OUT THE WAY. Even if he does get caught, I can't imagine that he wouldn't be able to reduce the damage. Remember, the only time Soifon's bankai harmed him was when he was compressed in a small box, and shot at from point blank range, yet still reduced the damage, and still fought normally with only a crack in his skull.

If his Respira touches 10 tails it wi ill eat away at his body. Only way to stop it is to cut off the parts.

6: Hallibel: I can easily imagine her as Kisames opponent, but he would get GODSTOMPED by her. She's physically faster and stronger. I don't see any of his attacks landing on her. If he fuses with his sword then she'll just use her release. He creates a water dome, she either evaporates it or boil it. And remember she flies, meaning she can easily escape his reach IF she needs to. Kisame's good, but he's hardly a factor for anyone above Espada 8. And Espada 9 is debatably a good match due to his water zanpakuto's abilities stolen from Kaien Shiba. She also has the standard cero and sonido...

7: Ulquiorra: Pain/Nagato isn't on ulquiorra's level when it comes to destruction. He did level konoha, but kanoha isn't even a city sized place. Once more, once he uses a technique on that level, he needs a MASSIVE recharge. Ulquirorra on the other hand, is immensely faster than pain. Not to mention he can use his abilities more than once. Do you not remember that the explosion from his power surpassed the height of las Noches. Which is several times taller than a full sized Yammy, ON THE INSIDE. On the outide, the giant pillars are even taller and the height of the explosion was higher than it. It even caused immense damage to the building from that distance. So yes, I stand by what I said. His destruction is rivaled only by, 10 tails whose most impressive destruction feat was a tailed beast bomb spanning several mountains(not downplaying, just stating here) His power is most certainly more impressive that even the nine tailed beast bomb, (the explosion that Minato averted) I'm not saying his destruction capabilities are greater than the Juubi, but they aren't to be taken lightly by anyone on that team including the Juubi.

Oh, I do acknowledge that I could be proven wrong about things pertaining to the Juubi, because many of his abilities are yet to be revealed.

8: 5th espada: Agreed: A fight between him and Hidan would be nice (hack and slash)

9: 6th espada: Same as 8...

10: No, it wasn't a joke, his abilities were made Crystal clear. Observe...


In bleach, when someone explains their powers, that what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. If you're going to ask why he's working for Aizen, you might as well ask why he isn't the first espada. Face it, he has an overpowered ability. Thats all there is to it. If he looks at your head, he controls the entire body (demonstrated later in the fight) The Juubi, despite all of that power, is utterly no exception. I also doubt that he would have the speed to dodge, although the Juubi does have the tendency to let attacks his it. The only ability at this level in Naruto is Shuishi's eye, which doesn't compare due to its impracticality in battle (once every decade) yeah, I doubt Itachi would even use it unless he was pushed beyond the limit. 
Also, not all in the akatsuki have speed. Sasori, Deidara, Hidan, Kisame, Kukazu, and a few others are within the limits of this ability. Oh, and keep in mind, no one in Madara's army can rival bleach characters speed. But in a speed battle, Zommari easily conquers. He doesn't need to release. He moves fast enough to make actual clones, making Soifons flash step look pathetic. 5 is his limit, but its more than enough in a 1 on 1 fight with his speed. His release is a bit over the top with its special ability.

11: 7th espada: That was just 1 of his abilities, he has many more.
He's a mad scientist and inventor, with the preparation time he would have come up with many ways to at least reduce the damage of their attacks.
He could use his "carbon copy" to create clones of his enemies. Defeat them, HA... They'll just break apart and multiply.
"Gabriel" is PERFECT for Hidan. I mean no other ability is better for defeating an opponent with his powers. If Hidan uses his blood to kill him, because he "implanted" the blood in him, it can be used for him to be reborn from Hidan. It eats from the inside out, devouring all chemicals, ect... His release doesn't have a combat factor worth mentioning, but his abilities aren't to be taken likely.

12: How can he be literally solo'd within a minute. His base form does have impressive combat abilities.

13: LOL, did you see his cero in this form. Its almost as big he is!
He could easily counter a tailed beast bomb with his cero. His Gonzui also allowed him to devour hundreds- thousands of human souls. 

14. YEAH, errrrrrrr....... No. In base form, Yammy destroys Hidan. His speed, flying and brute strength is quite enough. Thats IF his blade can even pierce his herrio. AND if Reshi= Chakra, Hidan will have to infuse his chakra with his blade in order to scratch him. In his release, I see him easily crushing Hidan before he even comes close

No, his abilities doesn't "decieve" the senses. It completely controls them. COMPLETELY. Look at his shikai, ONCE and he controls the senses permanently. Do I really need to pull some scans of Aizen explaining these abilities. And you're wrong, his illusions can hurt you.
He stabbed Yamamoto in the stomach and Yamamoto said that he could feel it. He also incapacitated several vizards in his fight with the captains, which was later revealed to be all an illusion. (part of it is show above)
Also, in the 1000 year blood war, he took his powers a step further by throwing off Juhabach's perception of time. If you object, I'll find scans for you (but keep in mind that doing so is a pain in the ass)...
Also, even IF they aren't that fast, they are faster than Naruto characters, at least those in Madara's army. If you want to argue this then you can, but for now I'm assuming that we agree on that. As I pointed out, Gin lied to Aizen, we have no way of knowing if he lied to Ichigo, seeing as he confirmed that he was showing off those abilities just to hide the speed factor. I'm going to see if I can find his character profile in "MASKED" for more confirmation. But out of generosity, we'll just both agree that it can easily span Katakura town, which he actually demonstrated, and that it travels really, really fast. 

I agree that there is a huge gap in strength between byakuya and Zommari. Your point? Brute strength doesn't mean a thing. Brute strength is what makes people think DBZ is the strongest animeverse. Just because the 10 tails is immensely powerful, doesn't automatically make him immune to his Amor. The ability was explained, it looks at something, he controls it. Its that simple, and thats all there is too it. Now of course if they're fast enough to move from his "sight" sure, but I don't see something as big as the Juubi not being visible to anything.
Why wouldn't they bombard him with shuriken? Simple. He's faster than all of them in Base. And in his release form he shielded himself from Byakuya's Senbonzakura, countless blades, and survived with non-life threatening injuries. He can survive some shuriken, LOL.
Also, according to the guidelines, Madara doesn't know much about Aizens army. i doubt they'd know his abilities, let alone the danger he poses. Also, Madara is arrogant, and he'd probably let him try his powers anyway.

From this, I think Team Aizen has a slaughter on their hands. I also believe they walk away with a GODSTOMP. But we'll see.....

Sorry this reply took so long, as I explained earlier. I look forward to your counter arguments.
Post by PrinceAragorn1 (157 posts) See mini bio Level 4

@shakyric_lawson said:

PT) 1

@PrinceAragorn1:

Sorry it took so long to do this. I take all advance classes in school so doing this through the week is often impractical, not to mention I have some new video games that have been demanding my attention, LOL. But I'm here now, so...

Juubi can create an infinite tsukuyomi? I don't think so. I think they said something more to the nature that his chakra can be used to make a tsukuyomi powerful enough to control the entire planet, which is not far fetched due to its massive chakra reserves, but once again, the Juuubi hasn't demonstrated any abilities pertaining to genjutsu. At least to my knowledge, so the Juubi forming illusions is out of the question entirely.

As for Itachi with Shishui's eye. Well that "would" be a problem except for one thing. He can only use it once every nigh decade. Danzo was able to put it through continuos use, ONLY because he had the cells of Hashirama, and even then, it required an impractical waiting time. Now what is I.T, I don't know what it stands for.

As for Barragon, you do realize that he was indeed able to counter her bankai with ease right. The first time, he aged her bankai and had absolutely 0 damage. I think you're referring to the second time she used her bankai, in which case he was essentially placed inside a small box and fired at from point blank range. And even then, the only injuries he got was a crack in his skull that made utterly no difference in his ability to fight whatsoever.

As for Gins use of bankai, theres a problem. Swords can pierce full-fledged tailed beast. Remember when Sasuke sliced one of the 8 tails tentacles? For some reason, full tailed beast seem to have the consistency of living flesh. All Gin needs is a scratch, and poison will do the rest. Also, Naruto may have had an insane healing factor, but so did Aizen, LOL. The only reason he survived was because the hogyoku literally wouldn't let him die. So if it pierces, it works.

1. Aizen still solo's, his complete hypnosis is beyond any Genjutsu so far in Naruto. IF YOU LOOK AT IT, he can control your five senses, PERMANENTLY. If anyone he's fighting even so much as look at his blade, including 10 Tails, its complete hypnosis. This enables him to do his #1 and most effective ability. Trolling. More on Aizen is at the bottom. BTW, Madara isn't a real problem. If it was ONLY him and his cronies, he'd be obliterated. However, if you want to pursue the subject of Madara's strength then you can, but until then i'll treat him as insignificant at best. After all, Barragon could handle him, as well as any of the top 7 espada.

All right about the delay. No problems at all.

Juubi may not be able to create infinite tsukuyomi. But jubi+madara or Jubi+Tobi can. I.t. is instant transmission. Kidding! :p Its infinite tsukuyomi.

Well that "is" a problem. Here is how: he can use it only once in nigh decade. Nice. The problem you're facing is, the one use is strong enough to turn a person completly, without them even knowing they're being controlled. He doesn't need to use it twice.

What I'm getting at, is that he failed to age attack of that level. Did you see how much chakra four tailed naruto packed in tbb against orochimaru? And, did you see the amount used by a full-fledged tbb? tbb>>>soi fon's ban kai, He's not going to have just a crack in the skull if he faces it.

The sword was used on octopus tentacles, which are soft, and it was a replacement used by bee to get away. If you see, 4 tailed naruto stopped the sword of kusanagi without any protection at all. I don't see Gin's sword being able to pierce 10 tails. Even if it does, does he have enough poison to cause serious damage to a beast of that size, while fighting its regen factor?

1.Are you sure? what about shisui's genjutsu? Or tsukuyomi, which, along with controlling sight, hearing, touch (See itachi putting kakashi in tsukuyomi: he saw things completly different, hear the slashing noises, felt the touch of sword and pain from piercing,taste didn't really matter in it) controlls the sense of time as well? Only thing that makes aizen's hypnosis so incredible is it's permanence. Have you read the recent chapter? Only guy who can take out Madara here is Aizen. With perfect susano, he's a casual multimountain buster, with rinnegan powers, he can absorb energy attacks, attract/repel things at city level, summon animals adjusting the situation, suck away the souls of people, read their minds and what not. What makes you think he's a nonfactor? You're underestimating him too much..

Post by PrinceAragorn1 (157 posts) See mini bio Level 4

@shakyric_lawson said:

2.So, are you saying that he just throws in the figures, different every time? do you take aizen for an idiot, who will not notice that he's not telling the same things about release of his ban kai, and he could be lying? The only people who've lied about their abilities are aizen, Gin and possibly captain commander to Juha bach.. (there may be more which I've forgotten about) About the speeds, tobi kept up with minato, who's slightly faster than naruto.. itachi and nagato kept up with him also.

3. Now about tosen. Sharingan eye techniques won't work. Correct. But the ones that need just pointing to him, etc? they will. So, will Tosen be able to fight 100 puppets laced with deadly poison without acquiring a single scratch without a puppet master to support him? or, will he be able to dodge every last attack of iron sand? I don't think so.. Hidan? possibly. He doesn't really have anything to very special in a fight. If you know his abilities, that is. If he was surprised at kenpachi standing after getting hit, won't he be stunned enough for hidan to get a scratch on him? possibly. But hidan is the most likely member to be solo'd by him. Who's kukazu? And, is there anyone in the whole battle against arrancar he put to sleep? he just used it to free his blade. Also, two members clad in susano, one repelling anything thrown at him, one immortal, one using earth techs to amp up durability, one a puppet master with enough iron sand to block, and hundred puppets as decoy, one who can regenerate using his sword, I don't see the rain of swords being significant. Tosen soloing madara doesn't even need a reply.

4. Seriously? Did you notice the size of tbb? its not that easy to dodge. Even orochimaru had to defend, though he's not very fast, he's shown remarkable speed in his very famous fight on the bridge.

5. Just notice one thing about barragan. His aging had a limit. Repeat: he has a near zero chance of aging attack as strong as tbb. or a spam of susano arrows.. And, really? he doesn't really get out of the way.. specially after release, when he uses respira.

6. Noticable thing about kisame is the amount of chakra he has, and the regeneration. If he was able to revert bee from his second level to base form, halibel it getting sucked dry if she's stupid enough to get near. I agree that she has the edge against him here, though. Kisame is a good enemy to anyone without hax abilities, Grimmjow, or nnoitora, though I agree he can't handle ulquiorra /stark etc..

7. You realise all ninjas from the leaf country live in a single village, right? And troublesome thing about pein isn't that single thing. His wide array of attacks is. Specially, absorbing any energy based attacks. As long as they're not made out of something that turns you into frog statue, he's okay with any energy based attacks, like ceros. About speed, you need to see his fight with six tails again. He's no slowpoke.. and If he's in the nagato form, he's about as fast as super ninja naruto (lol I mean the golden form)

Now about the 10t. I'd ask you to compare two things: 1. the size of 4t naruto's tbb and the size of destruction he made. 2. The size of 8 tails tbb that he casually flicked away..

He's strong. But nowhere a match against 10 tails. It still sounds like a joke..

8-9. Not a good idea. Once he get a bit of blood, the people who he can give trouble are 0th, 5th, 6th espada.. Yammy has a lot of blood to spill. It's quite simple to take him out: get his blood, cut hidan's head off. Done.. Nnoitora is a possibility, too.. But yammy has the highest chance.. Grimmjow doesn't go our cutting up and getting cut up though. It will be had to take him down like that.. Getting blood is the most painful thing about hidan.

10. Nah.. he's fast, but not that fast.. and, I was saying: Gap between byakuya and zommari is nothing compared to Gap between him and the 10 tails. For example, If you think his abilities will work on aizen in his full form, or someone like goku or godlike beings like 10 tails, you're falling for the no limits fallacy. And, his eye was able to control objects like a hand, a leg, a body, nothing on the scale of a tailed beast, leave alone jubi. why I was saying that he will be spammed with shurikerns, is to get him on defensive mode. Any one of the higher members can take him out in that form. tbb, amaterasu, kamui, shinra tensei, susano arrows,meteorite, shockwaves.. I don't need to go on. And, his abilities are based on kidou, or energy attacks. He's not overpowered or anything. Low level kidous are pretty useless against those with huge spirit pressure. Captain commander demonstrated it many times. There's no way it'd work on monstrous levels like 10 tails, madara, aizen etc..

11. He didn't really come up with anything to reduce the damage, when he went to face the two..

12. How about crushing him with a meteorite? or sealing him away permanently with itachi's sword?

13. His cero countering a tbb. lol that made my day :)

14. The point is, if someone, with more destructive power, helps him get yammy's blood, all he needs is to cut of his own head. The technique was powerful enough to work on a tailed beast. Yammy of all people isn't going to survive it.

About the illusions hurting: "Aizen sosuke, I've caught you." It was the real aizen. that's why he was feeling the spiritual pressure. I know what he did to Juha bach.. but we can't talk about it without knowing what he did.. But he didn't have his sword with him at the time, right? he could've talked him for a while, lol, Juha bach seems the typical muscle head to me. But I liked him the most out of bleach villains anyway..

It's okay it took so long though.. It has very well thought points. Except for insanely underestimating madara and 10 tails..

Post by TheNeutralOne (1,016 posts) See mini bio Level 10

You people make no sense. If the 10 tens created everything and has an unlimited amount of charka with all this jesus strength you give him was he defeated and sealed by one of his creations and in something as small and insignificant as the moon no less? That would be absolute retardation and hype. No one knows anything about the 10tails except the tailed beasts and even then they have only heard stories from the sage himself who very well could have lied and placed emphasis on the story so they would never try to combine and become whole again.

That spirit pressure nonsense I'm seeing is stupid. Chakra is chakra spirit pressure is spirit pressure. You saying Aizen being nullified by the spirit pressure has been refuted by that guy and you know it just give it up. I mean seriously the ten tails loss to the sage of six paths when he was supposedly "all powerful" but for all we know he was just powerful compared to everything else. Aizen can place anyone who has seen his shikai under the hypnosis point blank. You trying to argue against it shows you just hate bleach or wanna jizz all over narutos orange suit. Everyone always agrees Aizen wins why do you dare to be the different one when his powers are set in stone and will not change ?

Post by shakyric_lawson (64 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@PrinceAragorn1:

Well hopefully get to this comment tomorrow. DON'T, hold your breath though...

Post by soncrono (10 posts) See mini bio Level 3

I don't know what you've been reading but you're clearly wanking bleach a bit too much. I've read both mangas love them both, and sometimes I prefer Bleach much over Naruto but it goes without saying that Naruto verse is much more "hacks" than you think and here are some points to point out.

1. First and foremost clearly Aizen is the greatest and most likely the only threat for Madara's team. With the Hogyoku he's pretty powerful and bending some forms of reality around himself is not to be taken lightly. Aizen's reiatsu in hogyoku form is so powerful he can kill regular humans to some beings with higher reiatsu with just his mere presence. His speed, strength and duribility are massively increased to a point where he can speed blitz top tier characters from bleach, withstand and even regenerate from a Mugetsu, and easily kill Gin with one swipe of his sword. His has a powerful kido spell that allows him to manipulate the gravity within to an extent so powerful it distorts the space and time. In his near final awakening form he was able to create a massive hole in the ground with a "fragor" and creating a ring of those blasts around his target. Not to mention his Kyoka Suigetst allows him to actually manipulate all "five" senses to how he deems fit and is even said to be so powerful that even if one were to know they were under his illusion they would still be helpless against it. He's pratically a genius and with his high intellect he can plan out almost the whole Bleach continuum like how he planned for Rukia to meet Ichigo so he hid the Hogyoku within her and etc. Lastly it's also because he's manipulative and very persistent and can't die very easily, hence him coming back to life after being killed by Gin and him healing and almost killing Ichigo after taking a Mugetsu from Final Getsuga Tenshou and etc.

-But-

There is one person in the Madara team who I believe can beat Aizen if he teamed up with his team, or maybe even by himself, and that would be Itachi. Before you or others start "thrashing" at this post then i'll highlight some points of why I think so (even though I don't particularly like Itachi much, I still think he OP).

1.First and foremost is the ability of the sharingan. The sharingan is obviously a over powered ability, and is what literally makes people who have the eye so dangerous. It's ability includes precognition (to a certain degree), the ability to see forms and masses of energy, the power to read the slightest movements and follow the quickest speeds, it's ability to completely copy hand seals at slow to high speed levels, and lastly it's ability to give the users powerful doujutsu when the mangekyo sharingan is awakened. Itachi who clearly is the best user of the sharingan mastered the sharingan at the age of 8 (debatable) and awoke the mangekyo in his early teens. With his Mangekyo he has been able to demonstrate a number of techniques which include: tsukuyomi, a genjutsu that allows him to cast an illusion upon his target when they meet eyes and control the time, space and reality of the genjutsu on a whim (meaning he could give someone 1 billion strokes in his genjutsu and it could all happen in only a second in the real world), his amaterasu, a black flame that is nearly extinguishable and burns for 7 days and 7 nights, and lastly the last technique, Susanoo, which allows him to summon some being or guardian diety that shrouds Itachi from any incoming attacks with the shield of yatagarasu, whether it be physical or not. It also carries the sword of totsuka which is able to seal "anything" it touches into the gord. He also has the mangekyo sharingan that Uchiha Shisui gave to him which contains the eye technique known as Kotoamatsukami, a doujutsu that casts a genjutsu that manipulates a persons personality without the person even knowing they've even been manipulated. But the mangekyo isn't the only reason why Itachi is so dangerous. He is a master strategist, easily able to analyze the critical points and moments during a battle and coming up with a solution to the situation at hand, he contains almost an unlimited information on every technique in the Naruto verse, and is a master of illusions. In addition as I highlighted before, Aizen's kyoka suigetsu move may indeed be powerful, but it can only manipulate all 5 senses. However Itachi is able to bypass all five senses and by using the genjutsu, Izanami, he is able to manipulate the 6th sense and the only way of escaping Izanami is if Itachi chooses the criteria or way to break Izanami.

If Itachi can and most likely solo Aizen, then that'd be the end of Aizen team, with Madara summoning like what, a thousand meteors and using his fully completed Susanoo to destroy creation itself, i'd say Barragan just run if he doesn't want to die. Sasuke could literally flatline all 1000 Menos in a heartbeat. Let's not mention the Jyuubi, which would most likely kill all of the espadas together.

Post by aka_tsuki (26 posts) See mini bio Level 4

i don't see narutoverse beating powerful haxxed opponents which are a lot faster and more durable. barragan alone is a BIG threat to them. this isn't even funny

Post by shakyric_lawson (64 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@soncrono:

What I've noticed is nothing less of a double standard... which of course isn't your fought. However, OP techniques on the Bleach side like soul crush etc... hasn't been acknowledged, while the Naruto team gets to keep their OP techniques. No I don't have a problem with this because Aizen's Team Espada has enough hax to win in my opinion. But just had to throw that out there.

I agree with pretty much everything you said about Aizen. One thing you didn't include on though was his immense skills with kido. His fire kido(which I forgot the name of) which he used to counter a lightning kido a hundred years ago was easily a small mountain... and that was without an incantation. However thats just something to add.

As for Itachi, i'm not underestimating Itachi at all. However, you have to understand "why" I haven't made an effort to refute genjutsu in my other comments. To put it simply, genjutsu is the manipulation of chakra through the brain, which doesn't make it any less deadly, However, as you must know... Aizens Zanpakuto doesn't manipulate chakra. There's only one way to escape it, and I don't think there's anyway they'd ever figure it out. Aizen's illusions are on a whole other level for these reasons.

a). Its permanent, meaning there's no escape

b). It can be felt, evident when Aizen attacked the 3rd Espada and some of the vizards. The first parts of which, were an illusion.

c). Itachi has no way of knowing when its being used and even if he did there's no escape.

Now, if its a genjutsu battle you want then Aizen's zanpakuto will keep him safe for the most part. Aizen will be safe from most of Itachi's genjutsu if he doesn't look at his eyes, and if he uses his speed or way of destruction(or some other kido) to block or evade amatsaratu.

More on the Genjutsu battle, if Itachi can trap Aizen under his genjutsu, (Izanami) then all Aizen has to do, is accept the reality of what he's done. Once he realizes that things are repeating itself over and over again, he'll probably figure out how to get out (which I stated in the previous sentence) and given his high intellect, thats not out of the question. However, not knowing Aizen's abilities, (battle parameters) I very much doubt that he'll know about Aizen's zanpakuto until its to late, meanwhile Aizen will probably already know what he needs to about Itachi.

Now if Aizen traps Itachi first(most likely) then Aizen has won the battle of genjutsu. Similar to what he did to the captains and vizards, he'll probably troll Itachi and as many as possible, while taking out some others at the same time. (reference to how "he" took down 2 lieutenants by pretending he was Momo + momo herself by nearly getting her killed) Itachi has no way to counter that one, as he did Kurenai's(whatever her name is) because it doesn't manipulate the chakra network. Therefor Itachi would be trapped within the troll sequence. Also, the Izanami Eye would close forever, sooooooo...... I don't see him using unless he absolutely thought he would catch aizen, AND knowing Aizen, Itachi would've only caught an illusion.

I acknowledge the strength of Itachi's genjutsu, but I don't think it would work against permanent control. Also, taking into account the circumstances that their abilities were used, Aizen's spamming his zanpakuto like he always does... I mean I think we can both agree on that much. I just don't see Itachi winning the "illusion" fight.

I think Itachi's chances of winning are much better with susonoo. Where he's protected from Aizen's kido and can't be attacked, for the most part..... However, one must also keep in mind that it doesn't change the fact that he won't be protected by illusions. Aizen will use illusions, spam, troll, and then go in for an opening. Also, with the speed that bleach characters command, those attacks are aviodable... And I see no reason why he couldn't summon the kido (black box spell or whatever) that he normally uses inside of susanoo... If it hit, I don't see Itachi surviving.

Thats normal Itachi, Edo tensei Itachi requires that the caster be defeated, sealed(most probable), aged by Barragon, or controlled by Zommari. I personally don't know what the hell the creator of the forum was thinking by giving them their Edo tensei versions AND ten tails... but a victory is still possible.

Sasuke solo'ing Menos is understandable, but so is an espada solo'ing the Zetsu army. Its more appropriate to let the weaklings battle weaklings, and let powerhouses like sasuke duke it out with the Espada...

Zommari, could likely control the 10 tails.

Gin, with a sword as long as his would be able to use massive amounts of poison.

Barragon's abilities are obvious... and overpowered.

Aizen's zanpakuto can turn it against its own allies as well...

Well thats all for now, bye.

Post by shakyric_lawson (64 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@PrinceAragorn1:

There's something wrong with the infinite tsukyomi. Namely, it hasn't been used yet and thus we have no idea how the technique ACTUALLY works. By that I mean preparation time, ect... Also, this is going to be the 2nd cheapest thing i've said in this debate but I do indeed doubt that genjutsu would work on Bleach characters because they have no chakra network. Genjutsu is the manipulation of chakra in the cranial nerves, and while we did do the chakra= reishi to prevent soul crush, its definitely not the same thing.

As for Shui's eye, the same thing can be said about genjustu not working... but even if genjutsu works, who will he manipulate? Also, the parameters in which the technique can be used a very sparse and isn't elaborated on. Do you have to be close, look him directly in this eye, or what? If you know, SPILL THE BEANS!!!

And what I'm getting at, is that the only time the explosion worked was when he was sealed in a small box. Out in the open, Barragon should be able to age the attack, enough to survive at least. And 10 tails can't shoot multiple tailed beast bombs at once, which means it can be avoided.

It being a replacement or an octopus tentacle hardly changes anything. First off, that tentacle did have 1 tail worth of chakra(As it was used to help resurrect 10 tails) , which means that its was apart of the 8 tails that was actually chopped off. Also, you keep mentioning the 4 tails, which would be understandable if the Narutoverse was ruled by powerscaling. But its not... There are 3 types of tailed beast manifestations seen so far. The chakra form (naruto and bee demonstrated), the next form (where the blood manifests on the skin- by both bee and Naruto) and the fulled tailed beast form. My reasoning for mentioning this is simple... Killer be has indeed the tailed beast form analogous to 4 tails, which means that he did at one point have a form with the same "flesh" consistency as Naruto's. However, using your logic, because Killerbee used the FULL tailed beast form, Sasuke shouldn't have been able to cut him at all. Thats obviously not he case, as I shall once again note that FULL tailed beast modes appear to have the consistency of actual flesh, showing the ability to be cut. Either sasuke was mega powerful, or the tailed beast can be cut. Having said that, considering that gin is made of spirit particles, and that even with the "reishi- chakra" to prevent soul crush, that doesn't change the fact that his blade is still a soul slayer, (zanpakuto). In laymen's terms, its not a normal sword. It Should be able to peirce just about anything in the Narutoverse except the mirror Itachi's susanoo wields (only thing that comes to mind now) Furthermore, his sword can extend kilometers out, which means if the sword can pierce the Juubi, then if he transforms a few kilometers worth of his sword into that poison dust inside of the Jubbi, its over. The healing factor is over Shadowed by the fact that Aizen had incredible healing, but only a "tiny" chink of gins sword was enough to "kill" him.

1. Oh no, i'm not underestimating Madara at all. He's powerful, but all of his techniques can be countered, except for to my knowledge, his genjutsu. this is probably why he'd be Aizens opponent. Indulging in our little, "Aizen vs Madara" battle for a bit, its true that Madara is a casual mountain buster, but so is Aizen... when he uses his kido of course. His Zanpakuto is also key, seeing as, despite all of his power, there's nothing Madara can do about that. Susanoo's protection is perfect for outside attacks, but not so perfect for inside, as Aizen could summon one of those black boxes inside of his susonoo (forgot the name of the damn thing) I know it won't work, merely demonstrating a weakness there.

Also, I'll say it once more, I did not underestimate Madara, merely decided that all of his abilities could be countered by espada 1-7 in some form or fashion. Sure he can take souls, and what not. But if we allowed Madara to do that, then why not just end the fight before it begins, and let Yammy suck out all of their souls like he did the people of Katakura town. It would most certainly save team Aizen trouble. I wouldn't make a claim without some sort of reasoning behind it, I only just named 1 right there.

2. LOL, I've already conceded to that point for the sake of the argument only(as I'm still trying to find the databook) because it doesn't make a difference anyway. The sword is still several kilometers long, is fast enough to overwhelm Ichigo whose faster than all but the FASTEST in Naruto and still has a basically 1 scratch kill poision. No prob there. As for speed, Tobi "keeping up" is hardly a factor considering that 1, he was teleporting, and 2... he got his ass handed to him (so fun to watch :) ) Keeping up, as you say Itachi and Nagato did, doesn't make them as fast, especially not in comparison to bleach characters.

3. And what will he do if the genjutsu works by pointing his finger at him. Most certainly not make him see things, LOL. Tosen "sees" with reiatsu, which means that he won't be at all confused about the location of his enemies and things of that nature. Also, its going to be hard to do some of those things while he's either asleep or blind, deaf, and devoid of chakra sense within Tosen's bankai. Sakura could dodge iron sand attacks and many puppets, and she, like most naruto characters are only low level super humans. Tosen is much faster, so avoiding it to my knowledge should be easy.

Also, you imply that he can't win by putting them to sleep. No, just no. Itachi MIGHT be an exception because of his susanoo's mirror, but everyone else is destroyed by that technique alone, including Madara. Sure, he freed his blade with it, but that sure as hell didn't stop him from deliberately using it against Uryu did it, LOL. It will work against them just fine. You don't have to reply to the Tosen solo'ing Madara pt if you feel like that, but that doesn't change the fact that the attack would work just fine.

4. Of course I saw it. I think I know a little about my favorite anime... Having said that, the bleach characters have dodged, MUCH faster. You saw how the 1st espada dodged his reflected cero from Ukitake, who had increased the already great speed. Most Bleach characters have speed feats putting them above Naruto.

5. You know my opinion on Barragon's aging so I won't repeat myself, however you're wrong about him being able to move. The reason he doesn't normally move is because he doesn't have to in order to win. But he can move... did you see when he attacked Aizen in Hueco Mundo... that was movement. Considering that his sonido outclassed Soifon in BASE, his release would be much faster... Who says that he wouldn't use his respira on 10 tails, aiming for something so big that hardly moves can't be too difficult.

Also, i can understand that you don't think that Barragon would be able to age a tbb, but a flurry of susanoo arrows?!?! PLEASE!!! I mean, we've both done our fair share of underestimating in this debate, but susonoo arrows overwhelming respira? No, just no, no, no, no, no, no... Need I remind you that THE ONLY destruction attack that even came hit him was a small nuke shot at point blank range while he was trapped in a tiny box, and it only succeeded in a CRACK that he wasn't even bothered by? SUSANOO ARROWS!?!?!?!?! >:O

6. We agree for the most part, however, I doubt an opponent like Hallibel will get close if she notices that her reiatsu is draining... But yes, opponents without hax (Zommari, barragon, ect...) aren't a bad matchup... but a battle with kisame won't decide the overall victory, whether he wins or not...

7. I regularly watch and read Naruto, so yes, I know. However you made a remark about his destruction abilities... not him absorbing his destruction abilities. Also, while he can absorb energy and things of that nature, he's more likely to use almighty push to repel first (don't know why the FUCK he would do so but hey) giving an opening for physical combat that he can't hope to match. And as I mentioned earlier, his speed is hardly factor, as i'm assuming that you don't think he's faster than Ulquiorra..... I hope.

8-9. Hidan isn't that fast, even for Naruto standards. In base form Yammy would destroy him, I mean ignore his retarded appearance and what not, but this same person busted an arrancar's head open with a punch... Even if Hidan does get blood, if he gets close enough to do so, he gets smashed before he can lick it and get back to his circle. There's also Yammy's bala and cero to think about. Oh and there's the fact that he wouldn't even be able to touch Yammy's hierrio, eliminating the chance of getting blood, even with a direct hit.

10. Errrrrrr.... yeah he is. This was a direct statement AND demonstration as to his speed. He's that fast. His heirrio is enough to protect him from shuriken and things of that nature without flinching.

As for his "amor", I will say it as I previously have, it has no stated limits. The abilities were explained and demonstrated thoroughly... It stills the sovereignty of whatever it looks at and gets 1 object per eye. If it gets the head then the rest follows. There has been no stated power limit... Actually, yes, I believe the attack will work against anyone he can use it against, it just unlikely that they won't be able to counter and kill him before he can do otherwise, or stun him with their spiritual pressure. But thats within bleach. When comparing them to Naruto you have no such luxuries. Also, I've already refuted this spiritual pressure thing. First of all, the only thing that this chakra= reishi thing does is keep the Naruto characters from getting soul crushed and allowing them to touch eachother. That doesn't make it the same thing, nor does it equate Naruto characters with feats from bleach. Also, even within bleach there have been MANY, MANY, instances where a weak character can harm or perhaps kill a stronger one. I've already proven this in another argument I had on this page.

11. He actually explained this during the fight. When Renji and Uryu trapped him with Uryu's quince technique(forgot the name) he survived and explained that he was able to analyze his spiritual pressure, ect... to "reduce the damage"

12. How about getting the hell out the way with sonido? And how is it that Madara and Itachi are all over the battle field? Oh nevermind, I know exaclty why.

13. Glad to hear it, but the fact that you thought I was joking means that you either underestimate him or that you haven't seen the cero in his release form (wasn't even his largest form btw) He created a cero that easily surpasses the 9+ 8 tailed tailed beast bomb in power and destruction. I would go so far as saying it rivals 10 tails, but the way it was used (pointing it at the ground) I can't make the statement, and it would hardly make a difference anyway.

14. Sure, who though? No one but the Juubi has more destructive power on that team, and I doubt Yammy would so easily give up his blood, as I stated earlier.

Yes, that was a mistake on my part, I don't know why I said that, despite having posted the exact same thing you're referring to. However there are more examples. When aizen slashed Hallibel, when he attacked and incapacitated several vizards with only his illusions. He later confirmed that they were illusions by stating when he had first started to use them(the illusion)

Well thats all, for now... Oh, and if its a little sloppy, its because I was trying to get finished with it... i've posted enough for 1 day.

Post by PrinceAragorn1 (157 posts) See mini bio Level 4

@shakyric_lawson:

Yup, we should wait a bit to see how it works.

I think you have to see the eye to fall under the technique, considering itachi set it to activate at the sight of a sharingan..

That, because the blast was much smaller. A huge attack like tbb is not going to be worked down that easy. I don't think he could survive. But even if he doesn, whack him with those till he dies :) not like he uses sonido when he's in released form.. considering the size of tbb, its going to be tough to dodge it.. Even the first hokage couldn't, I can't see barragan doing that.

Madaras techniques are counterable, but seriously, how is aizen countering getting hit by asteroids on his head? he's destruction, agreed, but madara could spam the asteroids on them..

It wasn't "1 tails worth of chakra" it had some chakra of 8t in it. So they were able to resurrect the 10t.. Bee used it as a decoy to get away.. 8 tails did get cut by the blade though. Idk whether the durability was for the second form of bijju only, or of 9 tails only.. But the second release it not getting pierced by a sword. Not unless trunks steps out of dbz to do it lol

But I don't think Gins poison would be enough to age even one organ of 10t seeing the small chunk destroyed about 1/3rd of aizen's body, even if he leaves the whole sword there, Juubi should be able to survive on sheer size, that is, he somehow manages to pierce through the armor-like skin. (Jubi seems to have it, unlike the 8 or 9 tails..)

1.Madara's techniques have a counter. Agreed. But none of the espada are on the level he works on. If you think so, it's still clear you're underestimating him.. seriously. Only guy who can beat him here is Aizen. And about the soul sucking, it was used on strong shinobi, not civilians. You need to be strong enough if

2. Dude, keeping from getting blitzed by minato is enough of a testament for speed. And nagato blitzed naruto in his super naruto form :p The fight you're saying was very enjoyable, even if it ended in minato and kushina's death :(

3. Unlike zaraki, itachi or anyone for the matter, is not going to stand there while ban kai does its work. It has a specific perimeter, And had no effect of konamura when he jumped out of the perimeter. kenpachi, on the other hand, stood there and was affected.

4. Actually, cero is directly affecting. A tbb explodes. Just dodging him is not going to do the trick. And, you are overestimating "cry" here. It was not used, even once in the fight with the hollow captains in the past, nor with the Gotei 13. If it was so effective, did he forget about it when he was getting slashed?

5. Yup, I watched it again, I think I was underestimating him a little. not the arrows, but the shockwaves from sword that destroyed the mountains should do the trick.

6. Agreed. Kisame is not going to decide the outcome of battle. But he's not a non-factor either.

7. lol he says "shinra tensei" for that. :) It ususally doesn't leave an opponent in a condition good enough to use the opportunity to fight back. I don't think he's faster than cifer, but if you see him fighting the 6t naruto, you'll notice that he has insane speed. The problem in defeating pein is the linked eyes. If you don't know about them, they're very difficult to beat. And if he comes out himself, his speed, and the increased power of the techniques he uses. Imo he's a good match for anyone except aizen.

8-9. I'm saying, someone stronger, such as itachi/kisame could give him the required blood while he stands in the circle, away from the reach. Or sasori, with his puppets could be of good use to get a few drops.. not so tough for him.

10 shurikerns are not the things used to hurt him. it's to get him out of that eye form.. they have enough destructive power if senbonzakura could still harm him..

He said he's been using ks from a long time. Are you seeing he was lying in hinamori's place the whole time? no, I doubt it. He should've switched at some point. The credit goes to his speed, switching so quick here. But the aizen who stabbed yamamoto was the real one. (I never get why he didn't catch him earlier.. how very idiotic. I mean, if he could catch the real aizen, the other captains would've made a stab-doll out of him with captain commander in the game.. before he fused with the hogyoku..

You may notice from my post that I am getting seriously bored now lol :)

Post by shakyric_lawson (64 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@PrinceAragorn1:

You may notice from my post that I am getting seriously bored now lol :)

LOL, me too. thats exactly 1 of the reasons why I don't reply for days. Its gets boring and sometimes I just don't feel like it. However, instead of trying to come up with a refutation, how about a truce? As I'm sure both of us could go back and forth with this for, well a long time. So, Agree to disagree?

On another note, do you have a PSN, and Naruto Generations?

Post by PrinceAragorn1 (157 posts) See mini bio Level 4

@shakyric_lawson said:

@PrinceAragorn1:

You may notice from my post that I am getting seriously bored now lol :)

LOL, me too. thats exactly 1 of the reasons why I don't reply for days. Its gets boring and sometimes I just don't feel like it. However, instead of trying to come up with a refutation, how about a truce? As I'm sure both of us could go back and forth with this for, well a long time. So, Agree to disagree?

On another note, do you have a PSN, and Naruto Generations?

Yup, no one is active on the site at all.. I can happily agree to disagree..

Nope, I left using Ps quite some time. Games became a bit boring.. I play on my PC if I feel like it, but it's once in months.. So rather disconnected from game world :(

Post by PitoIto (2 posts) See mini bio Level 2

seriously with the Jubi? "is potent enough to bring total despair and destruction to the world, the progenitor of everything that exists in this world. it was a god that created countries and had the power to swallow oceans, split the land, and carry mountains. Tailed Beast Ball takes a unique, cone-like shape and gains an immense increase in range, firing speed and destructive power, enough to destroy many mountain ranges, entire cities or the Allied Forces HQ with a single blast each, despite them being at a far off location" not to mention that Madara can become the Jubi's shinshuriken to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi and in case you don't know what infinitive tsukuyomi is :Tsukuyomi requires eye contact to be performed, trapping the target within an illusion completely under the user's control that last for every " in other words becoming a God who controls everything and with the Jubi use the illusion on the moon and yeah pretty much he become the God " and not to mention no illusion can work on madara by saying so madara see through every illusion with the Mangekyō Sharingan'"

Post by PitoIto (2 posts) See mini bio Level 2

aaww i almost forgot Amaterasu , completed sasuno , Obito's Izanagi is a genjutsu that is cast on the user instead of others and is the most powerful amongst this type of genjutsu.When activated, the caster removes the boundaries between reality and illusion within their personal space.To a degree this allows the user to control their own state of existence While the user remains physically real while fighting, this technique is capable of turning any occurrence including injuries and even death inflicted upon themselves while the technique is active into mere illusions , Whenever the user receives a fatal injury, he or she automatically fades away as though they were an illusion all along and then returns back to reality; physically real and unscathed. The technique is based on an ability the Sage of the Six Paths had, referred to as "Creation of All Things"

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