Aizen and Ichigo vs Sesshomaru and Naraku

Topic started by RathGoku on Feb. 28, 2013. Last post by LHWKnight 11 months, 2 weeks ago.
Post by Dream (8,319 posts) See mini bio Level 21
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@Zerogodlike: It was to hype up the ability. Shonen battle anime and manga love to pull it off. Unless feats are shown to go along with what is claimed, then I have to call bollocks.

@taichokage: Difference being that when characters in Inuyasha hyped their abilities, Rumiko Takahashi actually would show that the characters were capable of pulling them off in many instances. On the other hand, Kubo has a bad habit of telling, not showing with statements and going for cool factor with his battles, which is why I find many character statements in the series to be questionable. If I can't trust the creator to show what characters can do for battle scenarios instead of being a braggart, then how do you expect me to seriously believe capabilities for a character that only have vague statements to ride on?

Do I believe Yamamoto is a Bleach top tier? Yes. Do I think he's THAT powerful with destructive capability? From what I've seen in the series, no I don't.

Post by axavierhansz (240 posts) See mini bio Level 8

@taichokage: Just out of curiousity, is it true that no other bleach character can kill living things?

Post by Whats_out_the_bag (1,869 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@Zerogodlike:

I want you to think about this The soul society has yammatto whos heat burns as got as the suns surface yet they still cant kill him? Which means the Hōgyoku can most likely regenerate him from nothing. which explains why the soul society couldn't execute him at all.

That's what you call the no limit fallacy. I've seen this agurment by you guys far too offten in the past and it's not even something that's reliable. What makes you think that he would even risk using his Bankai on Aizen when they got him. Aizen was put on his ass from being cut in half, his regeneration isn't that great compared to Naraku who can be ripped in peaces. Eos Naraku shits on his regeneration as he's capable of nearly coming back from nothing. Naraku has feats of such things, Aizen does not. I don't know why they didn't kill him, but that's just PIS. He has no feats that would mean he's unkillable. There's other abilties in other verses that can kill rape true immortal characters.

@taichokage:

Exactly. There's other hax like Unohana's bankai.

Bleach isn't really a hax verse as I can't even name many other than Barragan. And both of them have an ability very similar to Naraku's miasma.

That means that either it was deemed they wouldn't work or they tried and they failed.

They never stated they used every ones abilities.

Even with his reiatsu sealed which is the source of Bleach power, he was immortal which defies logic since in Bleach when your reiatsu is sealed or depleted fully, you have no access to your supernatural abilities. The Hougyoku was supposed to make him a higher dimensional being which could explain why such a thing is possible as it breaks the laws of reiatsu.

Yeah I guess so. It still doesn't have enough impressive feats to let him keep this calm of being unkillable. Hell Naraku showed better feats of that in the beginning of the series.

@Zerogodlike:

It was condensed into the blade and you would have to prove that its hyperpole because the author Said a exact number for a reason.

I can easily disprove it, but I like to believe it. lol A blade giving off that heat would have raped their own verse. It only made the SS very hot and dry. 10,000,000 degress would have done way more than that. Seeing how it didn't do so we arguably couldn't take it seriously. But I'm cool with it.

@taichokage:

That's like saying Meido Zangetsuha doesn't do what it says. It's also a power well beyond the norm of the series.

Nah. There's feats of Meido Zangetsuha doing what it says in spades. Also InuYasha is a hax'd verse. Everyone knows this. They are known for being very broken. Miroku even has a black hole in his right hand, and Meido Zangetsuha is above the norm? Pretty much every character got a hax'd upgrade by the end of the series.

Yamamoto is a top tier, just as Naraku and Sesshoumaru are top tier. It's so often Bleach that gets questioned probably more than any other mainstream series.

Bleach gets questioned a lot simply because the mangaka draws weird, and doesn't explain stuff. So people are left in the dark and make crazy assumptions.

EDIT:

As Dream as said Yamamoto is featless. Why do I still believe? Because I'm a fan boy simple as that. ^_^

Post by Zerogodlike (1,371 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@Dream said:

@Zerogodlike: It was to hype up the ability. Shonen battle anime and manga love to pull it off. Unless feats are shown to go along with what is claimed, then I have to call bollocks.

@taichokage: Difference being that when characters in Inuyasha hyped their abilities, Rumiko Takahashi actually would show that the characters were capable of pulling them off in many instances. On the other hand, Kubo has a bad habit of telling, not showing with statements and going for cool factor with his battles, which is why I find many character statements in the series to be questionable. If I can't trust the creator to show what characters can do for battle scenarios instead of being a braggart, then how do you expect me to seriously believe capabilities for a character that only have vague statements to ride on?

Do I believe Yamamoto is a Bleach top tier? Yes. Do I think he's THAT powerful with destructive capability? From what I've seen in the series, no I don't.

Bleach is nearing its end Thus hes showing the top tiers and their powers and also yamamoto was known to have very good control over his abilities so he doesn't kill everyone around him including his allies which is why he condensed his heat into his blade. Just because it that much DC capability wasn't known before he brought out his bankai doesnt mean that bleach would never reach that level.

Post by axavierhansz (240 posts) See mini bio Level 8

BTW I just realized something: the temperature of the blade literally doesn't matter. If I had one picogram of metal heated to 1000 times hotter than the sun's core, I could eat it without dying. Stating the temperature of the sword without stating mass is meaningless. And since shinigamis are...well...not exactly of this world... we can't assume that the sword weighs the same as a normal sword. Just saying.

Post by taichokage (15,462 posts) See mini bio Level 20
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No bleach characters can kill living things. This was known since episode one. Hollows can eat humans. Also the mass of Zanka no Tachi is not needed. Why? Because it burned a lot more than a picogram.
Post by LHWKnight (2,811 posts) See mini bio Level 12

Why is this still going on!!!

Post by axavierhansz (240 posts) See mini bio Level 8

@taichokage said:

No bleach characters can kill living things. This was known since episode one. Hollows can eat humans. Also the mass of Zanka no Tachi is not needed. Why? Because it burned a lot more than a picogram.

If it really is true that no bleach character can kill living things then we have to consider the possibility that the temperature thing is either hyperbole, or zanka has really little mass. Because if it was anything like a normal sword heated to a million degrees, it's going to kill a human without touching him. This would make this guy the only exception to his verse. Possible, but not likely.

Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20

Seems like a simple speedblitz victory for bleach here

Post by Dream (8,319 posts) See mini bio Level 21
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@hitsusatsu11: Read the OP post. Speed is equalized for this match.

Post by taichokage (15,462 posts) See mini bio Level 20
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No I was saying they can. Remember hollows kill humans. Grand Fisher killed Masaki for instance and Aizen killed a human when he entered Karakura. Sorry about my wording.
Post by supernova7005 (1,966 posts) See mini bio Level 15

@axavierhansz said:

@taichokage said:

No bleach characters can kill living things. This was known since episode one. Hollows can eat humans. Also the mass of Zanka no Tachi is not needed. Why? Because it burned a lot more than a picogram.

If it really is true that no bleach character can kill living things then we have to consider the possibility that the temperature thing is either hyperbole, or zanka has really little mass. Because if it was anything like a normal sword heated to a million degrees, it's going to kill a human without touching him. This would make this guy the only exception to his verse. Possible, but not likely.

It didn't kill anyone because Yamamoto was holding back. He only said his Bankai 'reaches' 15 million, he never said it has 'already reached' that temperature.

Read chapter 508, pg 3-5. We see he was taking care not to destroy Soul Society.

Post by taichokage (15,462 posts) See mini bio Level 20
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Unohana also said it would destroy Soul Society if he didn't finish against Rroyd quickly.
Post by Whats_out_the_bag (1,869 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Well lets get back on topic here people.

Post by LHWKnight (2,811 posts) See mini bio Level 12

Sesshomaru

whip of light

Poison claw

demon form

Bakusaiga:

  • Decomposition: Bakusaiga's primary ability is to decompose any organic material its blade cuts. Once cut, the target becomes "infected" with spontaneous destruction that disintegrates the main body and nullifies any regenerative properties the target may have. In addition, the remaining destruction will continue to spread to any organic matter that comes into physical contact with the original target, similar to a virus. It is because of this particular ability that Bakusaiga proved to be a bane to Naraku, as it prevented him from absorbing or reabsorbing yōkai or parts of himself that were cut by the sword without risking being destroyed himself.
  • Yōki Wave: In addition to its decomposition ability, the Bakusaiga can also fire off explosive blasts of green-colored yōki capable of destroying multitudinous weaker demons with ease. Given that this blast was shown destroying the 1000 demons summoned by Byakuya in a single swing implies that it is at least ten times stronger than the Kaze no Kizu. Additionally, Rumiko Takahashi herself stated that Bakusaiga's energy attack, while similar to the Kaze no Kizu, possesses much greater strength and power than Inuyasha's full-powered Bakuryuha.

It appears as though Sesshōmaru can control, to a certain degree, what is destroyed by Bakusaiga, as Kohaku remained unharmed despite being in contact with Naraku's Bakusaiga-cut tentacles when they were destroyed. Likewise, when battling inside Naraku's body, none of Inuyasha's friends were harmed despite repeatedly coming into contact with Naraku's disintegrating body (courtesy of Bakusaiga).

Naraku

  • Master Manipulator

Naraku has shown to be a master at manipulating demons and humans alike. Throughout the series he manipulates many people to get what he wants without getting his own hands dirty. Possibly the most important instance of his manipulation is when he tricked Inuyasha and Kikyō into thinking they had betrayed each other. Naraku transformed into Inuyasha and cut Kikyō down, fatally wounding her. He then transformed into Kikyō and attacked Inuyasha. This caused Inuyasha to feel resentment toward Kikyō and he went to go steal the Sacred Jewel. Kikyō, in turn, thought that Inuyasha had betrayed her and used the last of her strength and spiritual power to shoot a sealing arrow at Inuyasha, pinning him to the Sacred tree. This, ultimately, was to make the Sacred Jewel tainted for Naraku and to get rid of both Kikyō and Inuyasha. This one instance put the entire series in motion and set Inuyasha and the others on their quest to destroy him. Though, there are many other instances in the series where he manipulates others, for example when he offers the Saimyōshō to Sesshōmaru, when he forces a grief-stricken Kōga to confront Inuyasha, and the numerous times he controls Kohaku, just to name a few.

  • Saimyōshō

Naraku's minion wasps from hell; he keeps a hive of them with him at all times. Their most common use if for preventing the Wind Tunnel from being used, or poisoning the descendants of monk Miyatsu, who are unfortunate or foolish enough to suck them in. They are also useful for spying on Naraku's enemies, communicating with his subordinates, and gathering Jewel shards. Their stings are fatally toxic to both humans and demons alike, but they are rather weak as far as demons go. Many of them are killed by Inuyasha and his group.

  • Shape-shifting

He can take the form of anything he chooses, usually a humanoid, and change his voice along with his physical appearance. He possesses the young lord, Kagewaki, and remains in that standard form for the rest of the series. We're told by Miroku that every time his grandfather battled Naraku, the demon appeared in a different form, being defeated when Naraku took the form of a beautiful young woman. The most important instance of his shape-shifting would be the time Naraku disguised himself as Kikyō & Inuyasha and made them hate one-another. As his scent doesn't change with his form, Naraku ceased using this ability as Inuyasha and Kōga could smell his scent.

  • Demon puppets

Puppets which resemble him in his baboon pelt. He controls them from afar and can see through their eyes. They are mostly made of mud and soil, and are able to spring roots in order to attack opponents. They will only disappear if their heart is destroyed, which is a golem with a piece of Naraku's hair wrapped around it. Following Mount Hakurei, Naraku no longer employs the usage of demonic puppetry as he can survive attacks that would have killed him in the past.

  • Superhuman strength and speed

Much like Sesshōmaru, Naraku is far stronger than a normal demon and can move faster than the eye can see, both in the air and on the ground.

  • Flight

Similarly to Sesshōmaru, Naraku possesses the ability to float midair, and to ride upon a cloud of his own shōki. After his transformation into a full yōkai, Naraku never chose to employ his shōki-sustained flight, but flew only by the strength of his will, while in his barrier.

  • Demon parts

As he is made up of multiple demons in one body, Naraku is able to manipulate their body parts at will in order to restructure and strengthen his body, and he can also regenerate himself from injury and reform his body parts if they are cut off. He most commonly uses these parts to form tentacles which he uses to attack.

  • Absorption

Naraku is able to absorb other demons into his body, adding their powers and body to his own. This is primarily how he gains strength, by seeking out and absorbing strong demons, giving him access to their powers. Naraku can also expel weaker body parts in order to rid himself of them.

  • Psionics

Naraku has shown using various psychic powers and capabilities; including levitation, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation, mind control, illusion-casting, and astral projection.

  • Detachments

He can make incarnations out of his own body to do his dirty work for him. Most have a spider mark on their back which is a result of being born of Naraku when he still was a hanyō with Onigumo inside him. He often removes their hearts to ensure loyalty with the price of death for disobedience.

  • Barrier

A barrier which prevents the foe from finding and/or attacking him. At first his barrier was only useful in hiding his presence. As he gathered more shards of the jewel, he became powerful enough to erect a barrier strong enough to survive the Kaze no Kizu. After Naraku purged his human heart, the barrier became so powerful that nothing but the Kongōsōha and Kikyō's Sacred Arrow was able to penetrate it.

  • Deflection

Whenever someone sends an attack of yōki into Naraku's barrier, he can channel the flow of the attack into his own jaki and then attack his opponents with it. However, this can only be done with attacks that cannot penetrate his barrier, which means it's useless against Inuyasha's Kongōsōha.

  • Regeneration

Naraku can quickly heal his own wounds and also put back together severed pieces of his body. He can control 100% of his body all the time, even when his body parts or even head are severed, which comes in handy when he is trying to absorb someone. However, there is a limit to how much he can regenerate. The more damage he takes, the more time he will need later on to recover. Too much damage can kill him, which is why he had to flee from his enemies in the beginning of the series. Usually, he will absorb demons to speed up his regeneration process. However, after he removes his heart, which comes out as the Infant, he was able to regenerate no matter how much damage his body took since his life force wasn't in his body.

  • Human/Demon shift

Unlike Inuyasha, who is forced to become fully human on the night of the new moon every month, Naraku, as a half-demon with Onigumo inside him, could choose what time of the month he lost all of his powers. Unlike Inuyasha who became a normal human, he was merely a human head attached to a mass of yōkai parts during this time, which he used to experiment with his body and rid himself of any unnecessary parts. Since the events that have transpired on Mt. Hakurei, he no longer has to become human at any time..

  • Beam attack

Naraku sends out one or more of the horns on his elbows in a zigzag beam attack or extends his fingers into tentacles with a glowing attack at the tip of his fingers to attack his foe(s). In the manga, this attack was of a silverish color while in the anime it is of a purple color.

  • Miasma

Naraku's trademark, a poison which kills anything that touches it. It's what makes his poisonous gas. Naraku uses it to cover his entrances and exits, and can surround himself with the gas while flying. He created a "false Shikon shard" for Kōga with this substance. It was able to power Kōga in the manga and anime for a while until it backfired, poisoning him, and ultimately leading him to remove it with the help of Kagome. Naraku's body is filled with it, which is why when a foe bites him or even touches him he/she gets poisoned. Later on, as his power grew upon his transition to full demon, his shōki is able to take on a liquid form and acts like a river of acid. His shōki is so strong that it allows him to break away pieces of the nearly completed Shikon no Tama to use in his schemes. In the current manga, he can melt entire mountains. Over time his shōki has become so dangerous that after he infects Kikyō with it, neither Kagome nor Kikyō's purification powers seem to be able to purify it. Kikyō absorbs Midoriko's soul in order to protect herself but she comments that she doesn't know how long Midoriko's power can last against Naraku's venom, in the regard that she and Midoriko remain at the same strength while Naraku continues to increase in power. Eventually, even the influence of Midoriko is nullified with Naraku's absorption of the tree and Mōryōmaru.

  • Live Body Pieces

After absorbing the Infant/Mōryōmaru, Naraku gained the haku puppet's ability to remotely control his flesh and send them out to scout for other demons whose abilities could prove useful. Naraku has lately used this ability to detach his head while using his Spider Webs, making it easier for him to flee. Also used when Naraku had several of his tentacles and other excessive appendages attack Kohaku for his shard. It is presumably what allowed his armored copies to move without being directly connected to him.

  • Spider Webs

Following his re-absorption of Onigumo's heart a second time, Naraku gained the ability to create threads of spider silk. Only those of high spiritual power, such as Kikyō and Kagome can see them at all times; Naraku can make the webs visible at will if he wants. Anyone whose heart is corrupt will easily be caught in the webbing, allowing Naraku to further defile their hearts if he wishes; he can also show them illusions. The appearance of this ability further nods towards his nature as a spider half-demon. In his final transformation, Naraku creates a giant body in the shape of a spider, which can, obviously send out threads of spider web to ensnare other demons to add to his body. Naraku used these spider webs to further poison Kikyō, who had not fully recovered from his attempt on her life at Mount Hakurei, which ultimately led to her final death.

  • Shikigami

This power is only displayed in the PlayStation 2 RPG InuYasha game, InuYasha: Secret of the Cursed Mask. He obtained this power by deceiving Utsugi, a 'hitogata' duplicate of the original Utsugi, who was created by the priest Kakuju to ease his/her suffering when his/her real wife/husband died. Utsugi, the hitogata, required the soul of a relative of the real Utsugi, and a large portion of the Shikon Jewel, which Naraku provided, and helped in retrieving shards from Kōga to become a true, live human. When Naraku supposedly died, with the jewel in hand, at the hands of Inuyasha & co, the leftover jewel was retrieved by Utsugi behind the scenes. When Utsugi finally retrieved the soul she/he needed, which as it turns out was Kakuju's, Naraku's voice began echoing from the Sacred Jewel, and Naraku took over Utsugi's body rather than absorbing her/him to acquire her shikigami-channeling powers. He became able to use the destructive power of an unknown variety of shikigami, and would time-to-time spout out a long verse when he attacked during the fight in the game. Because this only happens in a game based on the anime and the events of the game stray away from the actual ending of the anime/manga, this power is non-canon.

  • Phantom Castle

Naraku is seen having the ability to create various "Phantom Castles" as a temporary headquarters throughout the series. After being nearly killed by the Red Tessaiga, Naraku abandons the usage of these castles, deciding to be constantly on the move to avoid being found.

  • Dormancy

Naraku has the ability to hide himself within one of his servants and make it appear as though he has disappeared, or have been killed. A simple task; he gets himself "killed'" and hides within the body of a servant of his choice. The only instance we see this is when he hides himself inside of Kohaku. When he was close to emerging from Kohaku a spider mark appeared on his back. To further this scheme, he makes Miroku's Kazaana disappear and returns Kagura's heart to her.

  • Black Magic

Naraku knows many different spells and curses, a prime example being the Wind Tunnel, and the Illusionary Death, used to distract Inuyasha's group when they tried to rescue Kikyō from him.

  • Armor Shell

Upon absorbing Mōryōmaru, he gained the Armor Shell of Meiōjū, being able to change its size for his own purposes. Upon absorbing Mōryōmaru, he gained the ability to cover himself at will with Mōryōmaru's impenetrable shell. It has been revealed that Naraku is hiding the Shikon Jewel underneath this shell.

I say they win

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